Advice For Scats And A Mono?

Teddy

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I have 2 Silver Scats and a Mono. My LFS told me they would be fine in my fw tank, but I am getting other feedback. My tank is 20G. I will already take back the Mono as it needs more space, however I have had the scats for a little while, and they seem fine. Should I keep the scats?
 
Well if your tank is FW, and 20g, then thats just in no way suitable...
They need to be in tanks of 75g, and in groups of 3, and they need to be in high-end brackish water.

So no, dont keep them, or the monos....

Mikey
 
I'm going to expand a little on the excellent comments Catfish Are Cool made above.

You can actually scats fairly well singly, though they are actually schooling fish in the wild. Provided their tankmates are not aggressive, scats will get along, and even form schools with, other species of scat as well as all the various monos. Quite probably they would also school with peaceful brackish water cichlids like green chromides, too.

It is possible to keep some species of mono and probably all the species of scat in freshwater indefinitely. Some people have done so, and among other observations made, their fish spawned. Scats in particular are truly euryhaline and migrate into freshwater from the sea their entire lives. They are able to regulate their salt and water balance perfectly well in both. One of the biggest myths in the hobby is that scats and monos are "born" in freshwater and migrate to the sea "when they grow up". This just isn't true. Most species live in estuaries and swim up and down them their entire lives. The exceptions are Monodactylus kottelati and M. falciformis, the last of which is never traded as an aquarium fish.

For the commonly traded species of mono and scat there really isn't an "ideal" salinity, though at least 1.005 is a good idea and around 1.010 seems to work well for long term care. None of the scats, and neither of two commonest monos (M. sebae and M. argenteus) must have marine conditions at any point in their lives. Monodactylus kottelati is an unknown because it hasn't be traded deliberately, but in the wild at least appears to be more "marine" than the other traded species of mono.

If you keep them in freshwater their entire lives, what tends to happen is the fish remain rather nervous and more prone to "background" diseases like lymphocystis and pop-eye. These are stress diseases that fish don't catch like they catch whitespot, but are triggered by the fish's immune system not working as well as it might. Quite probably these fish just aren't as able to live in overcrowded, polluted waters (which is what an aquarium is) as well as true freshwater fish. So that's why you want to keep them in brackish.

Your real problem is space. The commonly traded scats are about 20-30 cm when long mature. There is a smaller species, Selenotoca papuaensis, which gets to about 10 cm, but it is as good as never traded. Likewise, while there is a dwarf mono, Monodactylus kottelati, which is only about 8 cm long when mature, it's fairly uncommon in the hobby, and the two common species are both 15-20 cm size fish. So, monos and scats need a big tank. A 40-55 gallon tank is marginal at best, and really what you're after is something around twice that size. A 20 gallon tank isn't really acceptable for any of these fish.

Cheers,

Neale
 
thanks for the info. I have returned the Mono and got some Tetras in return. As for the Scats, they are small right now, and by the time they get to be a problem in size, I will have already upgraded to a much larger tank. The Scats do not seem to be having any trouble getting along with the others, and IMO are happy. The are swimming about, are eating fine, and are showing no signs of stress.

Thanks again
 
I have to know... has anyone ever seen a Monodactylus kottelati in a LFS, EVER!? I've been keeping an eye out for the last 6mo and haven't come up with anything at all. If anyone has seen these it would at least bring some hope. Can't even order these guys since their capture is probably accidental anyway.
 
Hello David,

Yes, I've seen them (I think). The first thing that catches your eye is the orange instead of yellow on the dorsal fin, and then you see the shape.

They seem to come in not mixed with monos but instead of monos, so when you see a batch of monos, there are either no M. kottelati, or the whole thing is M. kottelati.

Cheers,

Neale
 
I am farily certain my LFS got them in. Their fins are clearly orange and not yellow. They are asking $20 each. I would really like to get them but just have no where for them to go ATM. :(
 
I am farily certain my LFS got them in. Their fins are clearly orange and not yellow. They are asking $20 each. I would really like to get them but just have no where for them to go ATM. :(


I've seen Mono's with orange fins. However, the body shape was the same as a M. argenteus. I'll keep looking... thanks for the advice guys!
 
I recently found what I believe to have been a Monodactylus Kottelati at my LFS-
I was going to post my photo, but I can't figure out how to upload on this forum-
but the photo with the orange dorsal on the page nmonks mentioned:
[URL="http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/SpeciesSummary.php?id=59430"]http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/SpeciesSummary.php?id=59430[/URL]
is a near perfect match to the fish I had. Notice that the besides the orange dorsal,
the anal fin is larger than dorsal fin, and more vertical.
Note that the diagram on:
This black and white drawing of M. Kottelati on the 4th page of the following is accurate:
[URL="ftp://ftp.fao.org/docrep/fao/009/y0770e/y0770e42.pdf"]ftp://ftp.fao.org/docrep/fao/009/y0770e/y0770e42.pdf[/URL]
I cannot confirm that this is a brackish water fish, as my attempt to acclimate close to SG 1.002
had a promising start but a bad outcome.
It may require full strength seawater, or certainly a longer acclimatization than I provided.
I had been looking for this particular variety because I have a smaller tank,
and it has been described as a variety that might not outgrow the tank soon.
The tankmates include an Archerfish (T. Microlepsis), Dwarf Puffer, Swordtail (male), and a Panda
Cory cat. All are very peaceful together, and have been in essentially freshwater for several weeks,
I had been adding about 0.5 TSP/gallon of aquarium salt. The tank was well planted with
varieties of plants that should be able to grow in the low salinity brackish tank.
I have been planning on raising the salt content for the long-term health of the Archerfish.
When the M. Kottelati appeared at the LFS, unfortunately in full strength seawater,
I started to take the steps to slowly increase the salinity in my tank.

I purchased the fish under the mistaken impression that it was a brackish water fish
that could withstand major changes in salinity over a short period of time.
This was most likely a young fish- length only about 1 inch from mouth to base of tail-
and therefore more likely to tolerate low salinity, I thought.
There is alot of information out there- sometimes too much,
as you can find alot of support for any line of reasoning you wish to pursue...

When the M. Kottelati arrived, it was in a small bag at a SG = 1.019.
It seemed unlikely to last more than a day in that bag, though it treaded water very calmly
and seemed to have no problem breathing the entire time it was in the bag.
I decided to complete the acclimatization in 24 hours(!)
I started ramping up the salinity in my small main tank by adding a dose of salt every hour,
and diluting the salinity in the bag in 4 steps, roughly 25% every 6 hours. The actual
SG progressed from 1.019 to 1.016, 1.014, 1.010, 1.005, and finally to the same as the main tank.
The main tank salinity did not rise a quickly as I expected-
I had hoped to reach a salinity of SG=1.004 in the main tank after 24 hours,
but the salinity seemed to be stuck at SG=1.000 for a long time,
as if something were absorbing the salt (plants?). After a day it reached only SG=1.002.

But when the fish was released after a day in the bag, it was vigorous, ate well,
and started bullying the Archerfish, who turned out to be a complete pacifist,
never counter-attacking- despite the fact that Archie was twice as big as Mona!
The bullying did not seem to hurt the archerfish on his fins and scales, if not pride.
After adding some rocks and moving some plants, the two adversaries were settling into a truce,
when 3 days after release, the convulsions started. Odd twitches at first, then the Mono was
briefly seen flat on the bottom. Continued increasing the salinity, but the damage seemed to
have been done. Would seem to be paralyzed- just bob around the tank, but just for a few minutes-
then back to full power, bullying the Archerfish. Five days after release, the drifting spells were
more and more frequent, even at a salinity SG=1.005. Bringing back to SG=1.012 over the
course of 2 hours did not help, and the fish was put out of its misery at that point- returned to the LFS.

I will not attempt this type of acclimatization again.
I will keep looking for an M. Kottelati in fresh water, but I suspect I won't find one.
The Archerfish seems a little livelier at the higher salinity-
or maybe he's just happy to have peace once again.
 
Hi mef --

Thanks for that information. Fishbase seems to indicate that M. kottelati is a marine/brackish rather than marine/brackish/freshwater fish. Frank Schaefer figures both species in the Aqualog book but doesn't say anything about its salinity preferences. He does make the point that M. falciformis is a marine fish rather than brackish water one, so I have to assume Frank believes M. kottelati is at least a brackish water fish within his definition (fish that do well at SG 1.010).

I agree with your observation that monos can dominate archers. That's always been my experience, too.

Monos do not travel well. Salinity doesn't seem to be the issue. But I have seen them turn black, and sometimes die, simply from being moved from one tank to another. I suspect oxygen and/or ammonia is the key. Juveniles seem to travel better than adults. Once settled in though they are exceedingly hardy animals.

Cheers, Neale
 
Thanks for your comments, Neale.
This particular M. Kottelati never turned black(!),
never seemed particularly agitated, was startled once ot twice.
It is interesting that you don't necessarily think it was the salinity-
the more I read about the the physiological/osmotic demands on brackish water fish,
the more I am amazed that they can withstand sudden changes at all.

Here's the real link that seemed very similar to my fish- billed as M. Argenteus-
perhaps anal fin doesn't seem as deep as on my fish, but the orange color is right.
http://www.vergari.com/Acquariofilia/image...s_argenteus.jpg

Sometimes- not always- that image pops up here as:
"Google Image (not verified) May show another species!"
http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/SpeciesSummary.php?id=59430
I'll try to upload my photo to this site.

Your FAQ that was here won't load:
http://homepage.mac.com/nmonks/aquaria/brackfaqpart3.html
 
It is interesting that you don't necessarily think it was the salinity - the more I read about the the physiological/osmotic demands on brackish water fish, the more I am amazed that they can withstand sudden changes at all.
Evolution is a wonderful thing! If they couldn't tolerate these changes, they wouldn't survive! It isn't just brackish water fish that have this ability to tolerate sudden changes; intertidal ("rock pool") fish are just as good at this, perhaps more so. Anyway, Frank Schaefer says he's dumped scats into freshwater straight from seawater, and vice versa, without any problems other than sometimes improper buoyancy as the swim bladder takes a while to adjust to the different water density. I've certainly moved a variety of fish between marine and freshwater conditions within an hour using some sort of drip method approach and never had problems. These fish don't have any choice in the wild; if the tide is coming in, it's coming in, and the fish simply has to deal with the rapid change in salinity or else it dies.
Yeah, it'll load. That's just an obsolete URL. I re-jigged the pages over the weekend so they load faster. Go to the Brack FAQ index and choose what you want from there.

Cheers, Neale
 
Ive kept a Monodactylus kottelati. Nice little fish. It looks very similar to an argenteus mono only it doesn't seem to get any bigger. This species really does seem to apreciate a salinity above 1.010. They look dreadful in freshwater. Unfortunately I lost mine to a hungry hermit crab. But today I finally replaced the mono with an Atlantic Bumper (Chloroscombrus chrysurus). Hope it goes well. Eventually going to find him a bigger tank.
 
A hermit crab eating a whole mono? Was it not just scavenging?
 
Update about the Mono Kottelati with the bad outcome in acclimatizing from SG=1.019 to SG=1.002:
it recovered!
I hadn't been back to the the LFS where I had returned the M. Kottelati for several weeks,
but it appears to have recovered from the convulsions, and grown a bit in 4 weeks!
Upon return, the fish was put directly back to SG=1.019 (from min. SG=1.002)
and the manager was not optimistic about its lifespan-
but it must have been fairly tough after all.

Interesting about the increase in salinity from freshwater to 1.002:
the Archerfish (T. Microlepsis) has become more active.
Perhaps it is just a result of growth- or hunger-
but he leaps at the crickets on branches above the tank,
where before he had just shot them down, and now eats flake food.
 

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