What To Do Next - Please Help

[mella88]

Hi..been awhile since I have posted my last post about the water parameters. I just had my first nitrite reading yesterday after deciding to let the ammonia climb to 8.0ppm with ammo-lock in every two days to keep the fish alive. Let me give you a quick overview of whats happening..The first six weeks of starting the fish tank, the water parameters stay 0 for all the reading and in the last two weeks, the ammonia have steading rise to 8.0 and this week, nitrate and nitrite started to show up. Only did water changes on 7th Dec i think to allow ammonia to fully build up. The tank is partially filled with java fern, moss and two driftwoods. Got 10 neon tetras and 3 2" bristlenoses (only grow up to 13cm) and the tank is 80 litres (17 US gallons)

The reading from 17/12/2010 are
Ammonia - 8.0ppm
Nitrite - 0 pmm
Nitrate - 5.0pm
pH - > 7.6

The reading from 18/12/2010
Ammonia - 8.0pmm
Nitrite - 0.25pmm
Nitrate - 5.0ppm
pH - > 7.6

The reading (today) 19/12/2010
Ammonia - 8.0ppm
Nitrire - between 0.25ppm and 0.50ppm (cos its def darker than yesterday)
Nitrate - >5.0ppm slightly
pH - > 7.6

My question is why did nitrate show up instead of nitrite in the beginning cos my understanding is that nitrite should show up first and then elevated until nitrate appears? and when should i do the next water changes? Im just worried that if i do water changes, it may slow or stall the break-in cycling?
Any help would be greatly appreciated

 

[SensesFail]

Hi..been awhile since I have posted my last post about the water parameters. I just had my first nitrite reading yesterday after deciding to let the ammonia climb to 8.0ppm with ammo-lock in every two days to keep the fish alive. Let me give you a quick overview of whats happening..The first six weeks of starting the fish tank, the water parameters stay 0 for all the reading and in the last two weeks, the ammonia have steading rise to 8.0 and this week, nitrate and nitrite started to show up. Only did water changes on 7th Dec i think to allow ammonia to fully build up. The tank is partially filled with java fern, moss and two driftwoods. Got 10 neon tetras and 3 2" bristlenoses (only grow up to 13cm) and the tank is 80 litres (17 US gallons)

The reading from 17/12/2010 are
Ammonia - 8.0ppm
Nitrite - 0 pmm
Nitrate - 5.0pm
pH - > 7.6

The reading from 18/12/2010
Ammonia - 8.0pmm
Nitrite - 0.25pmm
Nitrate - 5.0ppm
pH - > 7.6

The reading (today) 19/12/2010
Ammonia - 8.0ppm
Nitrire - between 0.25ppm and 0.50ppm (cos its def darker than yesterday)
Nitrate - >5.0ppm slightly
pH - > 7.6

My question is why did nitrate show up instead of nitrite in the beginning cos my understanding is that nitrite should show up first and then elevated until nitrate appears? and when should i do the next water changes? Im just worried that if i do water changes, it may slow or stall the break-in cycling?
Any help would be greatly appreciated

Hi

I'm very new to fish keeping also I'm currently doing a fish less cycle. Have you checked the beginners resource centre at the top of the forum? It has help on the fish in cycling. Really 8ppm of ammonia is very high when you have fish in! Too high and frequent water changes should be carried out once a day to keep the ammonia down. Check out the beginners resource centre it has a very detailed spec of what you need to do


Click for info!

Fish in cycling

 

[Doc7]

Welcome to TFF and glad you came here for advice on your "fish in cycle" - this forum has been EXTREMELY helpful to me so far - i am still doing a "fishless" cycle myself after starting and deciding to abandon a fish-in one.

Yeah please read the resource center AFTER you do several immediate large water changes, at proper temp and with dechlorinator product, to bring your ammonia down below .25-.5 ppm (and nitrite!) - then go lower after you've read some. 6 weeks - ack it is too late to return the fish I am sure?

 

[SensesFail]

Yeah please read the resource center AFTER you do several immediate large water changes, at proper temp and with dechlorinator product, to bring your ammonia down below .25-.5 ppm (and nitrite!) - then go lower after you've read some. 6 weeks - ack it is too late to return the fish I am sure?

Follow docs advise asap your fish will thank you for it! If you can take back it would be ideal to do the fish less cycle but not alls lost if you read that section about fish in cycling you have a chance of saving this.

 

[mella88]

Yeah please read the resource center AFTER you do several immediate large water changes, at proper temp and with dechlorinator product, to bring your ammonia down below .25-.5 ppm (and nitrite!) - then go lower after you've read some. 6 weeks - ack it is too late to return the fish I am sure?

Follow docs advise asap your fish will thank you for it! If you can take back it would be ideal to do the fish less cycle but not alls lost if you read that section about fish in cycling you have a chance of saving this.

Ok, will do the water changes but im throughly confused now..i have checked all the fish and remarkably, none of them shows no signs of stress whatsoever and they all have healthy appetite and im not too worried about the ammonia as I have put ammo-lock which convert the toxic ammonia into non-toxic ammonia so it will not have any effect on them but nitrite on other hand, I understand that its more toxic than ammonia and are the one i should watch out for however if i do frequent water changes, it may disrupt the whole cycling process and i may not get the desired 10-20pmm of nitrate for the tank to be fully cycled..so could you please clarify why its so important to do the water changes and will it be possible to fully cycle the tank if i keep nitrite too low and enable nitrate to increase to 10-10ppm?

 

[SensesFail]

Yeah please read the resource center AFTER you do several immediate large water changes, at proper temp and with dechlorinator product, to bring your ammonia down below .25-.5 ppm (and nitrite!) - then go lower after you've read some. 6 weeks - ack it is too late to return the fish I am sure?

Follow docs advise asap your fish will thank you for it! If you can take back it would be ideal to do the fish less cycle but not alls lost if you read that section about fish in cycling you have a chance of saving this.

Ok, will do the water changes but im throughly confused now..i have checked all the fish and remarkably, none of them shows no signs of stress whatsoever and they all have healthy appetite and im not too worried about the ammonia as I have put ammo-lock which convert the toxic ammonia into non-toxic ammonia so it will not have any effect on them but nitrite on other hand, I understand that its more toxic than ammonia and are the one i should watch out for however if i do frequent water changes, it may disrupt the whole cycling process and i may not get the desired 10-20pmm of nitrate for the tank to be fully cycled..so could you please clarify why its so important to do the water changes and will it be possible to fully cycle the tank if i keep nitrite too low and enable nitrate to increase to 10-10ppm?

I'll let someone more experienced jump in I know with my cycling tank without fish, my aim is to have 0ppm of ammonia and 0ppm of Nitrite in a 12 hr period. Once I have this for 1 week then it's cycled. Nitrate is just the final product of the process and high value will slow the process down which is what I have to watch for but other than that It won't show that my tanks cycled just that ammonia is being processed to the finished product, as long as ammonia and nitrites are 0 every things brilliant.

When you have fish however you need to watch the levels of nitrate and keep them below a certain point. Carrying out frequent water changes will lower the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate and then the fish will produce more for the filter to feed on. This won't stall the process and the guide has been used by many and theres been no alterations to it so must work. A more experienced person will be along soon and they will be able to clear things up I'm just banging on their are some brilliantly knowledgeable people on here who will help you every step of the way! Good forum to be on! They are currently helping me battle my tank.

 

[Uriel]

Ammo-lock is not a solution to your problem, in the long run it's just going to make things far far worse. Each 1ppm of ammonia converts into 3ppm of nitrite. All the ammo-lock does is either store the ammonia away in some other chemical form or more likely converts it to ammonium which is then going to be converted into nitrite. You need to immediately do several large water changes to bring your ammonia level down below 0.25 and then you need to continue to monitor the tank and do daily water changes to keep the ammonia and nitrite below 0.25. Your fish may seem healthy but bad water conditions will cause them terrible stress and pain and risks disease and shortening of there lives.

I'm amazed neon have survived in those sort of water conditions as they are quite a fragile fish.

There is never a situation that you want to allow the ammonia to build also.

Also be careful with the water changes as if you haven't done any real water changes in 6 weeks your tank water and your tap water could be quite different.

 

[mella88]

Ammo-lock is not a solution to your problem, in the long run it's just going to make things far far worse. Each 1ppm of ammonia converts into 3ppm of nitrite. All the ammo-lock does is either store the ammonia away in some other chemical form or more likely converts it to ammonium which is then going to be converted into nitrite. You need to immediately do several large water changes to bring your ammonia level down below 0.25 and then you need to continue to monitor the tank and do daily water changes to keep the ammonia and nitrite below 0.25. Your fish may seem healthy but bad water conditions will cause them terrible stress and pain and risks disease and shortening of there lives.

I'm amazed neon have survived in those sort of water conditions as they are quite a fragile fish.

There is never a situation that you want to allow the ammonia to build also.

Also be careful with the water changes as if you haven't done any real water changes in 6 weeks your tank water and your tap water could be quite different.

I did water changes last week so it shouldn't be a problem and i just did 50% water changes (first 25% and second 25% water changes)

First 25% water changes
Ammonia 4.0ppm
Nitrite .25ppm
Nitrate 0ppm

second 25% water changes
Ammonia between 2.0 and 4.0ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate 0ppm

ammonia is still high so should i do another water change in an hour or so to try keep it down to .25ppm or can i do another 50% water changes tomo as i dont want to stress them out with too many water changes?

 

[shasm]

I am no expert but I would think the high ammonia would be more stressful for them than another water change. I would change the water again. As long as you temp match (roughly) and dechlorinate the water.

 

[karin]

Do not worry about your nitrates. Does not matter. You have a big problem with ammonia and nitrites and your fish will die with the nitrite readins you are getting. Please read about the fish-in cycling in the beginner's resources. You will be doing daily water changes if you want to save your fish. You need to get your ammonia readings down so I suggest daily water changes of 80% daily if not twice daily. You need to get the ammonia and nitrites to 0. Bristlenose and neons are particularly vulnerable to nitrites. .

 

[Skins]

Do not worry about your nitrates. Does not matter. You have a big problem with ammonia and nitrites and your fish will die with the nitrite readins you are getting. Please read about the fish-in cycling in the beginner's resources. You will be doing daily water changes if you want to save your fish. You need to get your ammonia readings down so I suggest daily water changes of 80% daily if not twice daily. You need to get the ammonia and nitrites to 0. Bristlenose and neons are particularly vulnerable to nitrites. .

Agree, your main concern is to keep your ammonia/nitrite levels under control, this can only be acheived with large water changes. Fish that are subjected to high amounts of ammonia/nitrites short term may not show visual signs of stress but could be doing untold damage to gills, nerves, and blood vessels which will in the long term cause severe stress.

Keith.

 

[waterdrop]

Hi mella88 and welcome to our beginners section!

Uriel has summed up the problems nicely. Periodically we have newcomers report they are trying to control fish-in cycle ammonia with ammo-lock or some other chemical resin but in the end it just doesn't at all work out. As he mentioned, the ammonia (regardless of whether in the ammonia or ammonium form) still produces spikes of nitrite that damage fish red blood cells and nerves and the other problem is that the ammonia to ammonium coverters like ammo-lock can still release ammonia at unpredictable times, the lasting power not being steady.

A couple of other bits of info may also help you understand some of the statements we are making. The Nitrosomonas (A-Bacs) and Nitrospira (N-Bacs) will grow steadily at the very low levels of ammonia and nitrite that our liquid-reagent kits detect as "zero ppm" and this is in fact fine for a fish-in cycle. (The Fishless cycling technique uses higher concentrations because there are no fish to get damaged.) In fact it can often be quite hard to detect spikes during fish-in cycles when they proceed slowly. Another bit is that permanent gill and nerve damage can occur without us seeing symptoms from the fish, we know that now from people who study fish in the science realm.

Speaking of low concentration levels, what sort of kit are you using? This can be an important factor the the members can give help with this. And, as also mentioned I believe, water changes are better off being as large as necessary to achieve and maintain the narrow band between zero ppm and 0.25ppm. The danger of toxin levels above 0.25ppm dwarfs any risk from water changes and those risks can be easily handled by dosing conditioner (chlorine/chloramine remover) at 1.5x to 2x (but not more than 2x during a cycle) and by roughly matching the return water temperature to the tank water temperature (your hand is good enough for this.)

Nitrate(NO3) is quite unimportant compared to achieving zero ammonia and zero nitite(NO2) as most fish can handle quite high levels of it and it is removed with water changes. Regular nitrate(NO3) measurements however, serve an important role in helping you keep an eye on whether your maintenance is doing an adequate job of keeping down buidups of many types in the tank after cycling is over. There are hundreds of organic and inorganic things that would build to too high a level if we did not perform regular water changes and NO3 tests help us stay on top of that.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[mella88]

Hi mella88 and welcome to our beginners section!

Uriel has summed up the problems nicely. Periodically we have newcomers report they are trying to control fish-in cycle ammonia with ammo-lock or some other chemical resin but in the end it just doesn't at all work out. As he mentioned, the ammonia (regardless of whether in the ammonia or ammonium form) still produces spikes of nitrite that damage fish red blood cells and nerves and the other problem is that the ammonia to ammonium coverters like ammo-lock can still release ammonia at unpredictable times, the lasting power not being steady.

A couple of other bits of info may also help you understand some of the statements we are making. The Nitrosomonas (A-Bacs) and Nitrospira (N-Bacs) will grow steadily at the very low levels of ammonia and nitrite that our liquid-reagent kits detect as "zero ppm" and this is in fact fine for a fish-in cycle. (The Fishless cycling technique uses higher concentrations because there are no fish to get damaged.) In fact it can often be quite hard to detect spikes during fish-in cycles when they proceed slowly. Another bit is that permanent gill and nerve damage can occur without us seeing symptoms from the fish, we know that now from people who study fish in the science realm.

Speaking of low concentration levels, what sort of kit are you using? This can be an important factor the the members can give help with this. And, as also mentioned I believe, water changes are better off being as large as necessary to achieve and maintain the narrow band between zero ppm and 0.25ppm. The danger of toxin levels above 0.25ppm dwarfs any risk from water changes and those risks can be easily handled by dosing conditioner (chlorine/chloramine remover) at 1.5x to 2x (but not more than 2x during a cycle) and by roughly matching the return water temperature to the tank water temperature (your hand is good enough for this.)



Nitrate(NO3) is quite unimportant compared to achieving zero ammonia and zero nitite(NO2) as most fish can handle quite high levels of it and it is removed with water changes. Regular nitrate(NO3) measurements however, serve an important role in helping you keep an eye on whether your maintenance is doing an adequate job of keeping down buidups of many types in the tank after cycling is over. There are hundreds of organic and inorganic things that would build to too high a level if we did not perform regular water changes and NO3 tests help us stay on top of that.

~~waterdrop~~

I'm using API test kit and API stress coat conditioner and I have already ordered Seachem Prime conditioner which i will get in post in few days. Yeah pretty much everybody have told me to do immediate water changes to which I have done yesterday and today. I did gravel siphoning today as well to help lower the ammonia even more. Im just still not understanding how it can be cycled if you keep the ammonia and nitrite low tho.

so far first water change and gravel clean (nearly 50%)
Ammonia between 2 and 4ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate 0pmm

and second water change (25%)
Ammonia 1.0ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate 0pmm

 

[Essjay]

Im just still not understanding how it can be cycled if you keep the ammonia and nitrite low tho.

If there is any ammonia or nitrite in the water, there is more than the current amount of bacteria can eat, so they will still multiply. When the readings are zero it means that you have exactly the right amount of bacteria to eat the ammonia and nitrite being made. Our testers aren't sensitive enough to tell if there is actually zero or a tiny trace of ammonia or nitrite, but if there are fish in the tank, and not enough bacteria, even if your water changes did get the levels to zero, they wouldn't stay there very long. As the numbers of bacteria grow, they will eat more and more of the ammonia and nitrite being made so the levels won't go up as fast and you'll need to do fewer and fewer water changes. Eventually you'll have exactly the right number of bacteria, and you'll only need to do weekly maintenance water changes.
Think of it this way - with trace amounts in the tank, the bacteria are standing ankle deep in food. With the reading of 8 that you had, they were standing neck deep in food. Both are more than the number of bacteria you have at the moment can eat so they will multiply till there are exactly enough bacteria to keep the floor clean.

 

[waterdrop]

Agree with essjay. That's the story that always helps people understand. After the filter is cycled and running perfectly, if you think about it, the ammonia and nitrite should continue to both read zero for many years, but the bacteria are alive and fully functioning. This means that they are getting enough ammonia and nitrite for sustenance and colony repair (which involves growth.) WD