Water Still Cloudy!

[dwiles]

Hi guys, wondering if you can help with an issue I'm having. 
 
I set up a 90 litre nano on the 23rd of November 2015. The tank used to be a marine JBJ nanocube but I gutted it out and made it suitable for freshwater. The filtration is situated in the back of the tank behind a false backing panel. Water is drawn through 3 different chambers, through filter media & a heater before reaching the last chamber and being pumped back into the aquarium.
 
In the first chamber there is a heater. In the second there are two bags of ceramic bio rings, followed by fluval phosphate remover, followed by some filter floss which I change weekly, and finally a bag of purigen. In the last chamber is the return pump. 
 
There a numerous plants in the tank, mainly anubias. The tank currently houses 8 cardinals, 4 leopard cories and a L201 snowflake pleco. The cardinals have been in the tank for around 3 weeks, the corys 2 weeks and the pleco one week. All are looking healthy and eating well. 
 
My parameters have always been stable until perhaps the last two weeks where they have started to rise. I did not cure my bogwood properly before adding it, so have been experiencing a lot of tannin discolouration; to combat this I have been doing 50% water changes weekly. The last time I tested the water was last weekend and parameters were at the highest they have been.
 
PH = 7.5.     
Ammonia = 0.1mg/l
Nitrite = 0.1mg/l
Nitrate = 15 mg/l
 
The thing bothering me is that I STILL have milky looking water. I cut back on feeding last week and am yet to see an impact, purigen doesn't seem to be helping either. Is there anything I can do or will it naturally settle itself? Should I continue to do water changes or leave it for a little while?
 
My other concern was that the filtration may be running "back to front" with the water passing through biological filtration first then the finer mechanical filtration (floss/purigen) after. Would this have an impact?
 
Any help or advice is greatly appreciated, thanks!

 

[BaylorPerez]

it should naturally do it as the bacteria in your tank clear up the ammonia and nitrite. but it could be a bacterial bloom you are experiencing, best to do a couple water changes over the next couple days and it should help with the cloudy issues you see. 
 
Also if you dont mind me asking, how long are your lights on for in the tank for your fish at night? or if any lights are on at all

what filter are you using as well?

 

[eaglesaquarium]

There's a few things...
First, its best to have a bit of a mechanical filtration first, to catch any large bits that might be floating about.  
Next, biological filtration should be next.
Finally, followed by any 'polishing' type media you have.
 
 
No need to change the filter floss weekly. But, you might have hit the limit on your purigen.  I'd suggest 'recharging' that.
 
 
Next, the murkiness.  You are claiming it is 'milky', so I assume that's whitish in nature.  This is generally a bacterial bloom due to a fair amount of organic material in the water.  This will subside after those organics are removed by these bacteria.  The white stuff you see is actually bacteria, and removing them won't do anything as they will just reproduce again.  The key element is to remove the excess organics.  
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/246850-bacterial-blooms-explained/

The Effects of a Bacterial Bloom

Most of the bacteria in the aquarium are aerobic as it is a oxygen dominated environment, and these bacteria require lots of oxygen. When the heterotrophic bacteria bloom into the water column and switch to their aerobic state, this is a big drain on the oxygen content of the water. Oxygen depravation is the only risk to the fish which i am aware of during a bacterial bloom, as the heterotrophs themselves are harmless to fish, so good advice is to increase aeration!   

To help you to understand why bacterial blooms occur, overfeeding ,dead fish or dead plant matter will cause a rise in the reproduction of the heterotrophs in order to break down the organic waste, they re-produce too quickly to be able to attach themselves to a surface and this causes a bacterial bloom. As the ammonia production increases due to the increased mineralisation, the nitrifiers are slow to catch up (as i said above) and so you see an ammonia spike until the autotrophs reproduce enough to take care of it. Contrary to popular belief, bacterial blooms cause an ammonia spike, not the other way around.

It is unclear whether the autotrophic nitrifiers ever bloom into the water column or if they simply multiply too slowly to cause this effect.


Treatment and Prevention of Bacterial Blooms

A thorough gravel vac will certainly help the situation, as will trying not to overfeed. Also, increase aeration as I noted above. Water changes will probably not clear the cloudiness as when you remove the free-floating heterotrophic bacteria, the others will reproduce more to compensate. Given the reproduction rate of the heterotrophs, it would require a 50% water change every 15 - 20 minutes just to stop the bloom getting worse, and even more if you want to make any progress towards clearing the bloom.

However, water changes won't exacerbate the situation as it will be heterotrophs (which are producing ammonia) which are removed from the water column via the water change. A water change will remove virtually no nitrifying autotrophic bacteria from the tank at all as 99% of the nitrifiers are housed in the filter, not in the water column. Water changes are not essential in clearing bacterial blooms, as left alone, they will usually dissipate within a matter of days.

Reducing the amount of organic waste in your tank is the ultimate solution to treating a bacterial bloom, and avoiding a build up of organic waste in the tank is the best way to prevent a bloom. The best way to do this is to maintain a regular aquarium husbandry routine involving water changes and substrate vacuuming.

 
Your primary steps to correct this are:
1 - Gravel vacuuming to remove as much excess waste as possible.  Just changing the water alone isn't a sufficient solution.  Plecos are especially messy creatures (they are roughly equivalent to aquatic bovine - large herbivores with a digestive tract to match!) and their waste needs to be removed by vacuuming.
2 - Increase the aeration in the tank by raising the filter return to the tank, or lowering the water level a bit to increase splashing.  Adding an airstone if you own one will also work.
3 - Fast the tank.  I'd suggest feeding them only a tiny bit 3 days from now, and again 3 days after that.  The fish will be fine without food for this time, will produce less waste products and give the tank a chance to balance itself.  I'm not sure how much you have been feeding but having a 'fast day' (or two) in the week is generally a good idea.  These fish are cold blooded, and don't need nearly as much food as we often give them.  In essence, a hungry fish is a healthy fish.  If the fish are overfed it leads to far more troubles!  So, feeding them far less food and less frequently will likely only help the situation.

 

[dwiles]

Thanks for your reply! 
 
The lights are on for 8 and a half hours a day. In terms of filtration like I said, its not really an internal or external filter, more of an internal sump that sits in the back of the tank - I have included a photo of a similar set up (this isn't my tank but its exactly like this)
 

 
The pump is 1000lph so turns over the tank approximately 10x per hour. Ceramic bioballs, phosphate remover, filter floss and purigen are used in the chambers.
 
I was a little hesitant to continue doing heavy water changes as someone told me the bacteria will just increase if this happens?

There's a few things...
First, its best to have a bit of a mechanical filtration first, to catch any large bits that might be floating about.  
Next, biological filtration should be next.
Finally, followed by any 'polishing' type media you have.
 
 
No need to change the filter floss weekly. But, you might have hit the limit on your purigen.  I'd suggest 'recharging' that.
 
 
Next, the murkiness.  You are claiming it is 'milky', so I assume that's whitish in nature.  This is generally a bacterial bloom due to a fair amount of organic material in the water.  This will subside after those organics are removed by these bacteria.  The white stuff you see is actually bacteria, and removing them won't do anything as they will just reproduce again.  The key element is to remove the excess organics.  
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/246850-bacterial-blooms-explained/
 

The Effects of a Bacterial Bloom

Most of the bacteria in the aquarium are aerobic as it is a oxygen dominated environment, and these bacteria require lots of oxygen. When the heterotrophic bacteria bloom into the water column and switch to their aerobic state, this is a big drain on the oxygen content of the water. Oxygen depravation is the only risk to the fish which i am aware of during a bacterial bloom, as the heterotrophs themselves are harmless to fish, so good advice is to increase aeration! 

 

To help you to understand why bacterial blooms occur, overfeeding ,dead fish or dead plant matter will cause a rise in the reproduction of the heterotrophs in order to break down the organic waste, they re-produce too quickly to be able to attach themselves to a surface and this causes a bacterial bloom. As the ammonia production increases due to the increased mineralisation, the nitrifiers are slow to catch up (as i said above) and so you see an ammonia spike until the autotrophs reproduce enough to take care of it. Contrary to popular belief, bacterial blooms cause an ammonia spike, not the other way around.

It is unclear whether the autotrophic nitrifiers ever bloom into the water column or if they simply multiply too slowly to cause this effect.


Treatment and Prevention of Bacterial Blooms

A thorough gravel vac will certainly help the situation, as will trying not to overfeed. Also, increase aeration as I noted above. Water changes will probably not clear the cloudiness as when you remove the free-floating heterotrophic bacteria, the others will reproduce more to compensate. Given the reproduction rate of the heterotrophs, it would require a 50% water change every 15 - 20 minutes just to stop the bloom getting worse, and even more if you want to make any progress towards clearing the bloom.

However, water changes won't exacerbate the situation as it will be heterotrophs (which are producing ammonia) which are removed from the water column via the water change. A water change will remove virtually no nitrifying autotrophic bacteria from the tank at all as 99% of the nitrifiers are housed in the filter, not in the water column. Water changes are not essential in clearing bacterial blooms, as left alone, they will usually dissipate within a matter of days.

Reducing the amount of organic waste in your tank is the ultimate solution to treating a bacterial bloom, and avoiding a build up of organic waste in the tank is the best way to prevent a bloom. The best way to do this is to maintain a regular aquarium husbandry routine involving water changes and substrate vacuuming.
 

 
Your primary steps to correct this are:
1 - Gravel vacuuming to remove as much excess waste as possible.  Just changing the water alone isn't a sufficient solution.  Plecos are especially messy creatures (they are roughly equivalent to aquatic bovine - large herbivores with a digestive tract to match!) and their waste needs to be removed by vacuuming.
2 - Increase the aeration in the tank by raising the filter return to the tank, or lowering the water level a bit to increase splashing.  Adding an airstone if you own one will also work.
3 - Fast the tank.  I'd suggest feeding them only a tiny bit 3 days from now, and again 3 days after that.  The fish will be fine without food for this time, will produce less waste products and give the tank a chance to balance itself.  I'm not sure how much you have been feeding but having a 'fast day' (or two) in the week is generally a good idea.  These fish are cold blooded, and don't need nearly as much food as we often give them.  In essence, a hungry fish is a healthy fish.  If the fish are overfed it leads to far more troubles!  So, feeding them far less food and less frequently will likely only help the situation.

 
Thanks for your response thats exactly what I needed! I will try all of these steps and let you know how I get on in a weeks time. Appreciate your help guys thanks very much.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I was a little hesitant to continue doing heavy water changes as someone told me the bacteria will just increase if this happens?

 
That is correct.  The heterotrophic bacteria will replicate quickly.  
 
The solution is to do gravel vacuuming to remove the waste present.  The water changes themselves won't fix the problem.

 

[StevenF]

I agree with Eaglesaquarium but I would also think about removing your phosphate remover.  For phosphates I would recommend getting a test kit and only using the phosphate remover as necessary to keep it at a safe level.  If you drop your phosphates too low youur plants will not be able to grow and won't  help remove excess nutrients. If your plants are growing fast enough your nitrates would probably be lower than they are.

 

[dwiles]

I agree with Eaglesaquarium but I would also think about removing your phosphate remover.  For phosphates I would recommend getting a test kit and only using the phosphate remover as necessary to keep it at a safe level.  If you drop your phosphates too low youur plants will not be able to grow and won't  help remove excess nutrients. If your plants are growing fast enough your nitrates would probably be lower than they are.

 
Thanks man, I will try this also! I am going to post an update at the end of the week with some pictures (hopefully having resolved the issue)

 

[dwiles]

Ok so today (monday the 8th) 
 
Didn't feed last night, or tonight
 
Params -
Ammonia - 0.1 mg/l
Nitrite - 0 mg/l
Nitrate - 5 mg/l
 
Purigen regenerated and placed back in the tank
 
Filter floss moved so that it is now the first thing that the water passes through, ceramic media second. 
 
Have taken out what I can of detritus/waste on the sand but there wasn't a great deal.  
 
Haven't done a water change since last Thursday.
 
Will now remove phos remover
 
Here is a poor iphone pic of what it currently looks like. 
 

 
Here is a tank i saw in my LFS the other day - showing the sort of water clarity I was hoping for