Very Pale And Not Moving Threadfin Rainbow

[Ch4rlie]

Hello,
 
Hope you guy can help figure out whats wrong with one of my Threadfin Rainbowfish, its a female and very pale compared to her tank mates as well as having loss of appetite and red spots on gills and lower fin. 
 
 
Tank : 90 Litre (24 US Gal)
pH : 8.0
Ammonia : 0 ppm
Nitrite:       0 ppm
Nitrate:      40 to 80 ppm (difficult to separate differences in colour on API colour chart)
 
Tank temp: 25.5C (78F)
 
Fish Symptoms : Very pale compared to tank mates, not moving, loss of appetite (bloodworms fed tonight)
 
Not moving much and staying in the same spot for ages and no appetite as just fed bloodworms. All the other threadfins gobbled up the bloodworms with relish but not his one, all symptoms just started today as far as I know.
 
Last water change was last Saturday and was a 25% change. Planning to do 35% water change tomorrow but may change to tonight.
 
No chemical additives except for right dosage of dechlor used on last water change(same product Nutrafin Aqua plus, not changed)
 
No medication added yet (be mindful have RCS and snails)
 
Tank : inhabitants 15 Threadfins in total, approx 16 Red Cherry Shrimps, 2 Assassin Snails, mixed common snails.
 
Recent addition to tank has been a new Fluval 300w E Heater and also a new piece of bogwood from Maidenhead Aquatics last Sat with Java Moss tied on. If it was the heater or wood or Java Moss, would have thought would affect ALL fish, not just the one.
 
Pic below, pale and red spots on gils/near eyes and near bottom fin.

 
Pic below, (sorry for blurry pic), fish nearest top is sick/pale Threadfin, compared to healthy looking Threadfin below.

 

[Ch4rlie]

Just a few more points that may help or eliminate any diagnosis. 
 
Shrimps are good indicators of water parameters, and they are as usual, eating and moving about as perfectly normally. 
 
Have just possibly realised that there are more males to females ratio. Difficult for a newbie like me to exactly establish which are males and which are females. As they are all still juveniles.
 
I THINK there are only 3 females compared to 12 males!! Bloody lfs told me there was 5 males to 10 females, and I as a total noob at the time, took their word for that.
Trouble is threadfins are constanly moving about the tank and is hard just to even do a basic headcount, never mind tell males from females. 
 
So therefore, does bullying from tankmates come into this as a factor of stress, but have not really seen much bullying going on though? This female IS the smallest of the lot though.
 
Am at the moment trying to set up a quarantine tank. Luckily I had bought a cheap 60 litre tank recently and planned to be kept in garage in case anything happened. Did not plan this to be used so soon and as a hospital tank but will do the job just fine.
 
Lights are working fine on tank as well as having a 100w heater and a fluval U2 filter which is good up to 110 litres also has new sponges and bio, won't bother with the carbon filter part as believe this would take away any meds added to the water. Also have a spare fake rock/coral decor which will put in as well. Won't put in any gravel or sand as don't see point in that as only a temp hospital tank.
 
But I don't know how to set up as quarantine tank as there is no mature media, am planning to take out about 35% of main tank water and put in hospital tank and fill up rest with tap water with right amount of dechlor. Will that be enough to get cycle started? trouble is the filter on main tank is a Tetratec 1200 and am unsure which media and how much to take out to start cycle without reducing the filter capacity of main tank. Hope that makes sense?
 
Don't have any plastic plants but will get some in the morning when Pets@Home opens as well as a bottle of Melafix or something like that.

 

[DrRob]

How long have you had the fish? Sounds like you're cycled but would be good to know if the fish have been in the tank more than 6 months since they came in from the fish farm.
 
As for the quarantine tank, all you need is a small handful of the biomedia from the external, put somewhere near the beginning of the flow in the internal. For one fish it should cope just fine.

 

[Ch4rlie]

I have had the fish for 3 weeks, from Maidenhead Aquatics, no idea how long they were there.
 
And yes the tank was definitely cycled. I got a filter 2nd hand with mature media and was cycled in less a week. Fully tested and confirmed cycled.
 
So is there no need to put water from main tank to quarantine to help with cycle a bit? Was planning to do water change on main tank tomorrow anyway so can easily do that tonight instead if this is of any benefit.
 
And will take some bio media from main tank filter.
 
Anything else I'm missing?

 

[Alm0stAwesome]

I wonder if the red belly is just from her bloodworm dinner?? Just a guess!

 

[Ch4rlie]

I wonder if the red belly is just from her bloodworm dinner?? Just a guess!

 
TBH I did not see if she did eat or not. But that would not really explain her being very pale, almost white, staying in the same area of water hardly moving at all, about 3/4 up from bottom and near the filter intake pipe.
 
Light timer has just gone off now! Hmm, may leave until the morning before attempting to move her to quarantine tank as water not quite heated up yet anyway and just switched on filter but no media in as of yet!
 
Hope she makes it through the night. Got my doubt and hope am wrong. 

 
Having a sick fish and unknown cause just sucks! 

 

[Ch4rlie]

Just added mature media from my main tank filter to Quarantine tank filter, tested 0 for Amm, 0 for Nitrite, and ph a weak 7.8 which is pretty normal from my tap. Did not test for nitrate.
 
Just added 3ppm ammonia to be sure, will test in morning/afternoon to be sure cycled and ok to put single threadfin if she survives the night. 
 
Just need to get some plastic plants, thermometer from lfs in the morning.
May also get Melafix but not sure if Melafix will actually do anything if not a fungus type illness. And don't think it is fungus type tbh. More a stress or an internal thing is my gut feeling.
Any recommendations for any meds?
 
Would be nice if someone may make some suggestions as to what possible causes there might be to cause this as am stuck and as a newbie, don't have much knowledge (if any!) about this sort of thing?
 
She is still in her bit of the tank, not moving much at all and still almost white.
 
*Sigh* 

 

[Ch4rlie]

Last water tests done on Quarantine test.
 
Ph -           8.2    (Main tank ph normally at 8.0, higher ph probably due to fact no live plants and no bogwood in quarantine tank)
Ammonia - 3 ppm
Nitrite -      0 ppm
Nitrate -     30 ppm (tap water normally around 30 to 40ppm so this is to be expected)
 
Will do test around noon tomorrow to be sure ammonia is back to 0ppm before putting threadfin into this quarantine tank.
 
Off to bed now, boy, been a long day! 

Just realised my quote about Melafix treating just fungal type illnesses is wrong basically, it is an anti-bacterial infection type of medication.
Must be tired if made a mistake like that! so may get that at lfs as well to have handy just in case.
 
Anyway, definitely off to bed now. (1am!)

 

[Ch4rlie]

No responses?
No advice?
 
 
Kinda disappointing 
 
She is still alive by the way, made it through the night, going to transfer her to the quarantine tank soon once have confirmed water tests of ammonia and nitrites at 0 ppm and get the stuff from lfs.

 

[Ninjouzata]

I'm sorry you're not getting many responses, I just have no idea what it could be. I've gone through so many rummynose tetras without a certain cause of death so I know what it's like to not know what on earth is going on. I'm sure others have had to deal with the same. I hope she makes it through whatever it is and that you get some more responses soon!

 

[DrRob]

Sorry, for my part am solo looking after the little one and needed sleep.
 
I'd certainly go ahead with the hospital tank, and keep a close eye on the main tank fish.
 
Reason I asked about the time since purchase was that after six months you can rule out a lot of things that can be picked up from the fish farms like parasites. Fish TB is unlikely on a farmed fish, more a problem with wild caught and tends to show later and more physically.
 
Sadly, beyond that, pale and listless doesn't give us much to go on. Could still simply be the after effects from the stress of the move on that one fish. Could be something as simple as constipation.
 
Keep a close eye on, something like melafix if you want to, and plenty of clean water and nothing chasing her may be all you need.

 

[Alm0stAwesome]

You're unlikely to clear 3ppm of ammonia with just a small portion of media. That fish won't produce anywhere near 3ppm anyway. In fact all of the fish in your tank won't produce that much ammonia in 24 hours. You go overkill when cycling so that you can safely fully stock the tank at once.

In regards to what's bothering your fish, sorry I can't help

 

[Ch4rlie]

DrRob - thanks. Cannot put her in hospital tank as too much ammonia at the moment. Had hope my mature bio media would cope pretty quickly but ammonia is still at 3ppm. Groan!
 
Nothing ever goes smoothly really.
 
Have got a small bottle of melafix, and also found a bottle of Interpret Anti Internal Bacteria and some of the symptoms listed that this can treat : Reddening/bloodstreaks under skin surface
                      : Loss of appetite, listlessness and a darkening of colour
 
This fish shows both these symptoms apart from darkening of colour.
So think will try to treat with this Interpet Anti Internal Bacteria meds first rather than Melafix.
 
 

You're unlikely to clear 3ppm of ammonia with just a small portion of media. That fish won't produce anywhere near 3ppm anyway. In fact all of the fish in your tank won't produce that much ammonia in 24 hours. You go overkill when cycling so that you can safely fully stock the tank at once.

In regards to what's bothering your fish, sorry I can't help

 
Just realised that now, will doing a 50 % or more change be better? 
 
I mean for the hospital tank, doing a large change, test for ammonia and if ok put fish in the tank?

 

[Alm0stAwesome]

Yeah just do a WC to get the ammo down but you may need to do 100% to get it down. It's a pretty big tank for one threadfin so you shouldn't have to worry about ammonia too much. Just keep testing after you've put her in.

 

[Ch4rlie]

Thanks, yeah its a big tank just for one little threadfin but never planned to use this tank as quarantine tank, its the only tank I had spare since got it for a bargain and planned to keep in the garage until a later date.
 
Anyway, will do massive water change now, test ammonia then if ok, put her in the tank.
 
Thank

Am planning on doing a a water change on main tank as well today, would it help if I used some of the water from the main tank to the hospital tank to help with media? 
 
About 20 litres from main tank and the rest (about 30 litres)  dechlorinated tap water into hospital tank?