The Nitrate Debate

[Byron]

 

I'm seeing why nitrates soared.  The fish are significant waste producers (Oscar and pleco in particular), plus the insufficient water changes (I would change no less than 50-60% every week here) and the UG filter in this scenario is another factor.
 
If you do decide to remove the UG, the tank will have to be torn down and the substrate gravel well washed.  Just shutting it off means some if not most of the bacteria will quickly die off and pollution can be deadly.  This is probably the main problem with UG filters (and like most of us older folks, I once had these exclusively); with canisters at least if it is off for any length of time, such as an extended power outage, you can clean it before reconnecting; not possible with UG.  The Oscar would also appreciate sand, something not possible with UG.
 
You do realize the common plecos will attain somewhere between 12 and 20 inches...need a very large tank.

 
Good Morning Bryon,
From another post of mine "I got my API phosphate test kit in today and as suspected my phosphates are very high in my 55 gal 5-10ppm 10ppm at least. This is the same tank with high nitrates although I have gotten nitrates down to 10-20ppm.  Tap water is 0-0.2 for phosphates
 
First question I have is what is the best phosphate remover? I have been reading up on PhosBan but wanted to ask the forum first. Edit: now i am wondering Phosban or Phosgaurd?
 
_I mention before this is the tank that I only had under gravel filtration with 550 powerheads only and lets just say i did not follow tank maintenance like I should have.
_I have added a Fluval external filter about a month ago and have been doing 40% weekly water changes since the 75% water change over a month ago.
 
I am sure I need to remove the under gravel filters and clean the gravel but i am worried about releasing even more toxins in the tank. Any suggestions on the best way to tackle this would be appreciated. 
 
I have been looking at canister filters primarily Cascade 1000 and EHEIM 2215. Casacade is lower in cost seems more user friendly but EHEIM seems to be better quality(only because its been around longer from what i have read) also EHIEM wins the quit battle if by just barely, these are from the numerous reviews i have read. ether way i will be making my purchase tomorrow and will most likely go Cascade as money is tight.  "
 
With that said when i do get which ever Canister filter how should I tackle this process?
Should I run the new filter with the current water as is (after a hefty water change of course) so it gets some bacteria before a complete clean?
Should I run the Phospate reducer for a couple of days first?
 
I do not have a back up tank at the moment so 5 gal buckets for each fish will have to do is that ok and is there anything else I should do 
 
Thanks in advance sorry to bother you specifically but you seem to have a lot of knowledge and I want to do this the right way.
 

 
I just posted in your other thread, so I will cut/paste here, and then add at the end.
 
Here it is clear that the phosphates are occurring within the aquarium, and that can easily be handled without resorting to chemicals or special filtration.  Phosphates high in the tap water are a very different problem.
 
Regular partial water changes, not overstocking, proper stocking (species and numbers), substrate cleaning to some degree, and not overfeeding (phosphates sufficient for plant growth will enter the system from the fish foods alone)--these practices should keep nitrates and phosphates in check naturally.  Once you get things back in balance, this should not be an issue.
 
I would also suggest tearing the tank down to remove the UG filter, if you decide not to use it.  There is no other way to handle this if you decide not to keep it running.
 
Eheim are good filters, and have the track record to prove it.  I have Eheim canisters, and an Eheim Mini in a smaller tank.  I also have a Rena XP3 Filstar on one tank, but prefer the Eheim.  I know nothing about the Cascade, so will leave that for those who do to comment.  But the reliability of Eheim is a significant factor; I have two that have been in operation since 1996 and 1998 respectively, with never an issue.  One has the heating element, which avoids tank heaters and I really like this feature.  More cost up front, but if it lasts for decades, well worth it.
 
So, I would clean things up naturally, and then the phosphates and nitrates should be gone (as problems).  As for tearing down and resetting the tank, I would pick up a 20g tank to use as a spare.  You can hang the heater in this while it holds fish (you may have to turn it down, as heaters set for larger tanks can overheat smaller) and use the hang-on filter.  Make sure you cover the tank once fish are in it, they have a tendency to jump; no need for light so any piece of glass or plywood will work temporarily, leave a few openings for air circulation.
 
Byron.

 

[vwdank]

Byron, once again thanks for the feedback and support. I am going to search for a 20g tank for back up and eventually holding tank for new fish.

 

[mark4785]

oh it's broken Eagles ... really broken. I have phosphates in my tap water that reads at 1.6-ish. In order to keep my tank free of BBA I have to run a phosphate remover. This was why I started water changing fortnightly - partly to cut costs but also because it's a pain in the bum! The downside of cutting water changes had allowed the nitrates to steadily rise.  
 
Now my Nitrates are down but my phosphate is reading at 1.8ppm which is making the fish sickly again and a return of black algae. I actually can't win. I'm getting some help and great advice regarding the phosphate on my other thread though. I'm just annoyed my water company likes to make things difficult for me - not to mention expensive

 
 
My advice would be to keep the nitrates at around 40 - 50 ppm and leave the phosphate level were it currently is. Thereafter, it would be useful to either dim or exchange the lighting to stop the algae growing so quickly OR do not adapt the lighting level and add some Egeria densa plants which will quickly utilise the nitrate and phosphates before the algae spores can.
 
Attempting to reduce values like nitrate and phosphate is a waste of time since they are not harmful to fish, its unnatural process and very hard work on your part.

 

[mark4785]

 
Just to add to Byron's point (only anecdotal, I know, but never mind!); I collect a lot of old fishkeeping books, barely any of which mention water changes of any kind; one that does recommends keeping the old water in dark glass jars for a few weeks, before putting it back in! I can only imagine what their nitrate levels must have been at. One thing I've especially noted in these old books is that the maximum sizes and lifespans for the fish are significantly less than we would expect now (oscars at a max of 6" is one I can remember off the top of my head!) Tetras like neons weren't expected to live more than a year or so (and I have a few false neons that are pushing 7).

So the effects of elevated nitrate (and other substances, as OldMan rightly pointed out) might not have an immediate effect, but they certainly seem to if the fish are exposed to them for any length of time.
 

 
 
What you are saying here is that nitrate certainly has the effect of reducing life expectancy. I'm sorry but where is the scientific evidence conducted by proper empirical research to support that opinion?
 
While I think you are correct in saying "substances" can have an effect on a fish, such as ammonia, nitrite and the many other compounds out there, I do not think it is possible to describe the nature of this effect based on observations alone.
 
Observations, having studied Psychology and Chemistry, are merely the basis for which somebody puts together a scientific enquiry, or hypothesis, to then find a causal relationship between two things (i.e. the effect of nitrate on fish).
 
I think, but do not profess to know, that reduced life expectancy in fish is likely brought on my stress from other tank mates, imbalanced diet, insufficient dissolved oxygen and inappropriate physical objects (i.e. sharp gravel in the case of Corydoras or bog wood in the case of Discus).
 
 
As mentioned before, I have used a properly calibrated nitrate sensor (manufactured by Horiba) and I have not witnessed any unusual fish behaviour while my aquarium has had nitrates in excess of 30 ppm alongside 0 ppm of ammonia and nitrite.

 

[Akasha72]

high phosphates do have an effect of fish - it also causes black beard algae. I've been battling with high po4 for years. I'll continue to battle with it until my water company reduce it's level in my tap water.