Sterility In Tropcial Freshwater Livebearing Fish

[SpookyLilGirl]

After reading blog after blog,page after page,and many websites:I wanted to touch on the subject of sterile fish. For most of us sterile fish are not an issue. When I began keeping fish years ago I did not have problems with my guppies or swordtails dropping fry like crazy. Then I learned to keep tanks with one sex or the other instead of mixing them. After some years when I started working another job and began working overtime. Because of that my fish were not as cared for as I would have liked,so I gave them away and packed up my tanks. Lets skip to 5 years later. My kids are grown and gone,I don't have to work as hard; so I bring my tanks back out. I cycle them for 4 weeks an keep close tabs on water parameters. Tanks are ready for fish. So I go to my son to grab both sexes of guppy and red velvet swordtails. Both groups are 1 year in age. Because I want some fry I mix the sexes. My swordtails give me 5 fry within 7 weeks. 3 die and 2 females are growing nicely. The guppies however seem determined to remain fryless. I call my son, he states they have never produced fry. These female guppies are second generation females from very productive mothers. They are a little over a year old now, and have never produced fry for my son. Pondering issues with fancy males being sterile I went an purchased another male. 3 months later no fry. The only thing I can think of is medication my son placed in the tanks when the these females were 3 week old fry. He used methylene blue and aquarium salts to deal with Ich. The first treatment did not work so 4 weeks later he had to treat the tank again. He got rid of the Ich, but for some reason these females have never produced fry. They all have different mothers and fathers. So the only common denominator is the methylene blue. The fry in his other tanks that were not treated all went on to produce babies. This is more of a theoretical subject to help explore the many things we as fish keepers face that hamper fish productivity. If you have some ideas please let me know.

 

[Tolak]

Meth blue is commonly used when artificially hatching eggs of many species. While I've never had need to use it on livebearers, I have used it when pulling spawns on many other species, and never encountered any fertility problems with the offspring.

What are your water parameters, and what is the tank set up like?

 

[SpookyLilGirl]

Meth blue is commonly used when artificially hatching eggs of many species. << never heard or read that before. Thats some unique information.

My tanks are set up like this: 2 twenty gallon longs medium planted with amazon sword and annubias, 1 fifty gallon well planted aquascape with no stock. The 50 gets a fifty percent water change once a week, and twenties are the same way. Water parameters are as follows : pH is roughly held at 7.5 to 8 , nitrates 0 , nitrites less then 1 , dH 15 , ammonia 0 , temp is held around 78f, and I keep the water brackish. The planted tank is keep at the same parameter because occasionally I will do a partial water change from the plant tank instead of the tap. The fish are fed once a day with dry flakes and later in the day with fresh foods like spinach or brine shrimp ect. Occasionally they receive egg yolks.Once a month there is a vitamin supplement added to the tank. All tanks are exposed to 12 hours of light,and 12 of no lights at all: this is all done by timer. The filter medium is changed out in stages.I have a sand substrate layered with a small pea gravel.There are no man made items in the tanks, nor plastics of any kind except for intake tubes and air lines. My filters exchange all tank water within an hour.

 

[Tolak]

Tanks sound all good, my first thought was hiding places for fry, seems to be plenty with the plants, and water hardness, which sounds good. Most livebearer breeders love floating plants, this gives the fry a really good hiding place, less chance of being eaten. The folks bidding up on bags of beat up plastic plants at auctions are usually your livebearer breeders.

You might want to try bumping up the protein a little, some frozen bloodworms or shaved beefheart works good, especially if you can find a good beefheart mix. Hatching bbs is another option, this is one of the best food for fry, adult livebearers will eat it as well, live food induces spawning. Try some water changes with slightly cooler water, this is another trick for inducing spawning. I would do these with no salt added, guppys & swords aren't really brackish fish, salt will generally work with mollys, but is by no means needed.

Meth blue is just one of a longish list of antifungals & antibacterials used when spawns are pulled.

 

[SpookyLilGirl]

""You might want to try bumping up the protein a little, some frozen bloodworms or shaved beefheart works good, especially if you can find a good beefheart mix. Hatching bbs is another option, this is one of the best food for fry, adult livebearers will eat it as well, live food induces spawning.""

I do provide both 20 tanks with newly hatched bbs and live adults brine shrimp. They get egg yolk here and there ( its muddles the water to give it to often ) and I cant find beef heart anywhere in my area. The other live foods are not available in my area either, even though I live in a huge populated area with many pet stores. My husband is squimish over frozen ** bugs ** in the fridge so that option is out as well. If you have other options please let me know. As for the water changes, my tap water comes out pretty much on the warm side during the summer. Outside of dropping some icecubes in it I've decided to seperate the sexes and leave them like this for a little while. The tanks are side by side and the females seem to like swimming along the glass to the males tank ( fishy teases ) but all in all the females seemed more relaxed without the 24 hour loves advances of the males. I have noticed both of the surviving sword fry are females, and one already dominates the other. I'm going to bring in a fresh male when they are old enough to breed. I love red velvet swords. Anyway, since the female guppy's are as old as they are I am going to assume they are past the prime for breeding and let them out to pasture to just enjoy the plant tank and get other females. (( is there a thread for fish and plants trading? I didnt want to be way off mark with this thread by asking ))

 

[Tolak]

Lol @ bugs in the fridge, he would flip out here. I get in 25 pounds of live blackworms at a time, with two refrigerators in the basement for them. Frozen food takes up a door on the freezer, without a doubt my fish eat healthier than I do.

A little ice in a bucket to cool the water a bit will help, younger breeding stock is a good idea as well. If you have access to a meat grinder making your own beefheart mix is an option, you can freeze the extra, it isn't a bug, it's beef. Nearly any decent butcher shop can order in heart, about once a year the club I'm with orders in about 20 pounds & has a little beefheart party, keeps everyone in beefheart for quite a while. There are plenty of recipes, most include spinach, spirulina flake, other forms of seafood such as shrimp, and vitamins. I don't think we have ever made it the same way twice, and it works out every time.

We have an entire section for buying selling & trading; http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/forum/113-classified-section/

 

[OldMan47]

I doubt it is the cause of your apparent sterility but I would drop the "brackish" like a bad habit. As a matter of fact, when it comes to general freshwater fish, it is a bad habit. There are a very few livebearers that sometimes do better in a sea salt mix than in soft water but those are few. It is also not too common to have tap water so soft that the mineral content needs to be raised for fish health. As in anything else, there is no hard rule about adding minerals to the water, it depends on the water you are starting with and the specific fish you are keeping.

 

[SpookyLilGirl]

'OldMan47'
I doubt it is the cause of your apparent sterility but I would drop the "brackish" like a bad habit.

Well I appreciate your candid opinion OldMan47. I've ran my tank with and without salt, and in the area I live in my fish get fin rot bad if I dont keep my tanks on the brackish side.I'm not the only guppy keeper here in my area that has found this to be true. I know there are hard core people who do not like keeping guppy or sword in a brackish tank, but Im not one of them. But thank you for responding, I appreciate your time. I tend to keep pristine tanks, with regular water changes. I dont over feed, and I clean the gravel regularly. So dirty tanks and bad water are not an issue here

I came across an article that had some interesting information. Would seem dominate female swords are known to put out a hormone that suppresses the ability of sub females to develope or breed. Since my females all share the same tank, I wonder if somehow my guppy's have become sensitized to this hormone. My dom female is indeed a typical dom female and rules the tank like a true ** queen **. Could it be her hormones affecting my guppies ??

And yes Tolak, no bugs allowed in the house Hard enough to keep the fish let alone live crawlies he is a bugaphobe

 

[Harlequins]

Hmm i will have to agree with oldman on the brackish side, generally mollies can handle brackish,but guppies,swords etc are generally freshwater fish.
I know you mentioned fin rot,but keeping salt in there for this purpose may not serve well,i thought salt when treating has "med" type,eventually after having continual use,like anything will cease to work has if should has the fish will become immune to it...?
All your tanks sound good, but theres one worry you say nitrites less than 1? well thats not a good thing,they need to be zero and your nitrates 0? normally there is some sort of reading unless you tested after a large w/c?
I haven't heard of the dom females surpressing hormones of others,although may be possible,young fry release a growth hormone in the water,which when doing daily w/c on fry tanks help by replacing with fresh water promotes young frys growth.

I unfortunately never had a problem with livebearers dropping,i was overcrowded by hundreds within a few months


Good luck i hope you get fry soon

 

[JustMrMe]

Spookylilgirl - Your water is hard, judging by your pH alot of that hardness is actually from mineral content. There really is no need to run your tank brackish. The salt in the water supresses the bacteria which can cause the fish to have a lowered immune system as they're not using it.

Also I think your water stats are more likely the cause of repeated fin rot. As Harlequins said, ammonia and nitrites should be 0 and nitrates should be present (even if low).

By the way...

My filters exchange all tank water within an hour.

<-- does that mean your filters are only rated at 1 x the capacity of your tank per hour? Cause they should be at least 5-10x the capacity of your tank per hour. Eg. 60l tank should have a filter on it rated between 300-600lph
If you're only filtering 1x per hour then you could do with upgrading your filter.

I can't see hormones playing a role unless your tank is either a) overstocked or b) badly maintained. You say you clean it regularly but what size is it and what is the total stock?

Harlequins - They don't become resistant to the salt. The only risk is that the lowered number of bacteria in the water could result in lowered immunity of the fish overtime as they aren't exposed to pathogens.

ps. This is Curiosity101 on my OH's account, mine needs re-activating but admins haven't done it yet

 

[Harlequins]

Harlequins - They don't become resistant to the salt. The only risk is that the lowered number of bacteria in the water could result in lowered immunity of the fish overtime as they aren't exposed to pathogens.

Ahh right,ok thanks curiosity101,with you now

 

[Harlequins]

Just an after thought to op,

Why do you do a 50% w/c on the 50 gal planted tank if you have no stock in there? and why use the water from this tank for the 20 gals instead of the tap? just curious

 

[SpookyLilGirl]

I can't see hormones playing a role unless your tank is either a) overstocked or b) badly maintained. You say you clean it regularly but what size is it and what is the total stock?

a) WITH 20 gallon tanks and 5 guppy in one and 1 adult 2 juvenile red swords in the other I dont think Im over stocked
b) With weekly water changes and regular gravel cleaning I really dont think my tanks are badly maintained

But thanks for your opinion.

I like to use water from the plant tank bc its well aged and prevents issues with tap water. We recieve water from the next city over. It is supplied off a lake with plenty of birds turtles and what nots.It then travels many miles of pipes (( some of them older then dirt so to speak )) only to run thru pipes that are just as old in the house. To allow time for metal removal and such I allow it to run thru a wet/dry system for the benefit of my fish.

As for the brackish situation, Im sticking to my habits. It has worked for me for years, and my fish are nice fat and healthy. And as far as I know wild swords and guppy often live in brackish water estuaries. Ive not seen one piece of evidence to the contrary.Call me over protective but I dont loose fish to bacterial or fungal issues.
And the 1x was a typo meant to type 5x per hour.

 

[fish48]

[quote
As for the brackish situation, Im sticking to my habits. It has worked for me for years, and my fish are nice fat and healthy. And as far as I know wild swords and guppy often live in brackish water estuaries. Ive not seen one piece of evidence to the contrary.Call me over protective but I dont loose fish to bacterial or fungal issues.

[/quote]
most or if not all wild swords are found in fresh water if you want your fish to breed then drop the salt and feed them on live foods if Your water is hard there is no need to put salt in with swords and guppy's its just a myth

 

[OldMan47]

I think her mind is made up on the salt Fish48. No point in pressing it any further. I merely disagree with that approach and do know the source of wild guppies and my wild swordtails. The stuff we get at a fish shop is so far removed from wild fish that wild type conditions are irrelevant. How may species of platy and sword went into her pet shop swords is something we will probably never be able to find out, so wild condition statements become pointless. My own swordtails are Helleri, monties and nezzies. None come from anything approaching brackish, but who knows about a pet shop swordtail hybrid.