South American Community Advice Please

[EdwardWouldWood]

Hi all,

So... I used to keep a community tank many many years ago when I was just a lad. Now I have my own kids and have the time / money to start the hobby again and at the same time have them enjoy a tropical fish environment.

I have done a lot of research and have decided to start a South American biotope style aquarium using small to medium size community peaceful fish.
I've purchased a Juwel Vision 180 tank, which I believe will be suitable for this set-up.

The fish I currently have in mind would appear to all be suitable tank mates, will have good tank level distribution, get along and are a suitable size for the tank (92cm width / 41cm depth / 55cm height).

I would really appreciate any comments or info that might be useful before setting up the tank and stocking it with the fish I've chosen. I've put some notes on why I've come to my current fish choices to possibly aid in any responses. Thanks in advance...

Marbled Hatchetfish x 6
I prefer the look of these to their larger version and wanted something to occupy the top of the tank. It would appear 6 makes for a healthy number?

Golden Pencilfish OR Ruby Red x 6
Seem to be suitable with the rest of the fish listed. Perhaps one version more so then the other?
It would appear 6 makes for a healthy number?

Cardinal Tetra x 12
It would appear 12 makes for a healthy number?

Bleeding Heart Tetra x 6
I am also very keen on the Black Neon and Ember Tetra, but thought the BH Tetras would offer a different shape to the Cardinals in comparison.
It would appear 6 makes for a healthy number?

Spotted Headstander x 6
Again, seem to be suitable with the rest of the fish listed.
It would appear 6 makes for a healthy number?

Otocinclus x 3
Another fish from this region and useful with it's cleaning abilities.
It would appear 3 makes for a healthy number?

Cory Cats
I'm finding it very hard to decide on which of these to potentially get as so many look wonderful. I've not seen many up close, so I'm thinking I should wait until I do.
As examples, the Adolfi, Bronze, Jullii's all look wondeful and are around the size I'm looking for.
Thinking of 6 of two varieties.

Thanks again for taking the time to read and respond, all comments welcome.

Ed

 

[Byron]

This is a very good sized aquarium for what you are intending. I have a 40g with similar measurements, but the additional height of yours really makes this an excellent tank for the sedate fish mentioned.

First question I have, is about the intended aquascape. Were you intending to have plants, or more jumbles of wood branches and chunks with no plants (other than floating), or something in between? Floating plants are mandatory, but you can be authentic without lower plants,or with some, or with many. I'll leave this aspect until I have a better concept of your intention.

Second question, do you have data on your source water? The GH (general hardness) will be crucial here, as you will be dealing primarily with wild caught fish. The KH (carbonate hardness or Alkalinity) and pH are also worth knowing. I noticed you are in Brighton, UK, so I tried to track down some water quality data, but didn't get far so you will have to let us know. So for the moment assuming there are no problems with parameters, to the fish mentioned.

Carnegiella strigata (Marble Hatchetfish)-- a larger group, definitely. The species in this genus always do better with more of them. You can combine the species if you decide, but I would say aim for 15-20 whether just C. strigata or with some C. marthae. The C. myersi, the smallest of the known hatchetfishes, is a bit more sensitive. IF you do go for a combo, I would try to get equal numbers per species. I have maintained all species in this genus individually and together, and they do seem to like several of their own when in mixed company.

BTW, this species has a varied pattern depending upon its origin location, primarily with respect to the mid band across the keel. At one time or another, five species were recognized, reorganized into two by Weitzman in 1960, C. strigata and C. vesca. Gery (1977) recognized the very close physiological structure and modified these into subspecies as C. strigata strigata and C. strigata fasciata respectively, and noted that all species in this genus are polytipic, meaning that two or more distinct populations can be recognized within the species concept. Weitzman & Palmer [in Reis, et al. (2003)] went one further and consider there is just one distinct species C. strigata. But depending upon the collection location, you can end up with two quite different looking fish.

Golden Pencilfish (Nannostomus beckfordi) or Ruby Red (presumably N. mortenthaleri)--Forget N. beckfordi with hatchetfish, the latter will be mercilessly nipped and die. N. mortenthaleri is ideal. This species is basically identical in behaviours and requirements to two others, N. rubrocaudatus and N. marginatus (the "dwarf pencilfish"). When N. mortenthaleri was first discovered in 2000 in the Rio Nanay it was initially described as a sub-species of Nannostomus marginatus by Paepke & Arendt (2001), but later it was determined to be a valid distinct species (Weitzman et.al., 2001). N. rubrocaudatus was described as a distinct species by Zarske (2009). This latter while striking does not have the coral red glow of N.mortenthaleri which in my view is truly one of the most beautiful fish we have. A group of 8-9 minimum.

Cardinal Tetra (Parachierodon axelriodi)--fine, and a group of 12 is good too. The close relative P. simulans is not as brightly red, but the iridescent blue/green line is absolutely straight and longer, giving this species a more linear appearance. This is a very lovely fish. Needs close attention to water parameters and quality, more than the cardinal, but both are demanding.

Bleeding Heart (Hyphessobrycon erythrostigma)--forget this species. It gets too large to really work with the other species here. And it has been known to nip at sedate fish sometimes. There are some good species with a similar disk shape but remain smaller, and these are also more peaceful and quiet (non-active swimmers). H. rosaceus (Rosy Tetra), H. bentosi (Roberti tetra), H. sweglesi (Red Phantom Tetra) all contribute colour (mauve, reddish orange). The Ember Tetra (H. amandae) is fine, no faults; a group of 8-9 minimum. The Black Neon (H. herbertaxelrodi) has never been a favourite of mine but it would certainly work here too, in a group of 7-8 minimum. A very similar fish (slightly larger, as in less linear) but less often seen is H. metae, and worth acquiring if you ever see it. I should mention that I always aim for odd numbered shoals generally, simply a matter of aesthetics (sometimes there may be more significant reasons, but not here).

Spotted Headstander (Chilodus punctatus)--this is a lovely fish, and the only headstander suited to community tanks with smallish fish. The problem is getting them to eat prepared foods; once they do, they can live a long time. Algae is their prime food, so allow some to develop (a good biofilm on surfaces, a couple months) before acquiring them. While in QT (a very good idea with this fish, due to its reluctance to eat if no other reason) on its own, it may accept sinking foods like algae/veggie disks, and once it does, it should fare better in the display. I did this the last time, and my three survived for a few years before a protozoan got in the tank and they succumbed. I would aim for a small group, maybe 5. I've had this fish I believe three times maybe four, it is rare here, and many die within the first few months primarily from lack of proper food and maybe the wrong tankmates. It is very peaceful, and shy. Would be nice in your proposed tank. Forget the otos, as the headstander needs the algae and otos are rapid feeders that will out-compete the timid headstanders.

Cory cats (Corydoras sp.)--no problems here, and with 150+ species no lack of variety. Aim for 5-6 of a species, and then combine them for 15 or so in the end. This is a fish that always is better in higher numbers. [And here as elsewhere by "better" I mean healthier, "happier" (whatever that means to a fish) and less likely to develop problems.] They can live over a dozen years easily. I have 50 in my 70g, representing 12 species (some are few in number due to available fish) and regularly a fry will appear, usually rescued from the canister filter. The more the merrier. Most are basic in mature size, around 2 inches; the three "dwarf" species I have found do not fare as well in larger tanks. C. adolfoi (or perhaps it is actually C. dupicareus) is a beauty. C. similis is another nicely patterned, and the similar C. guapore (quite rare for some reason), and then there are the various spotted/lined pattern species... .

The above considers the species individually, so I am not meaning that all of these in such numbers can be combined in this tank. But if you want a species, it should always be in numbers best for it, if you want it to be healthy and live a normal lifespan, so reduce the number of species but not the numbers within those selected in the end.

Byron.

 

[EdwardWouldWood]

Hi Byron,

Firstly, a huge thanks for this incredibly detailed reply. It's so much appreciated as getting the right combination is very important to me.

As for the aquascaping, I wanted to recreate something similar to the natural habitat. I've not done too much research on that yet apart from what the fish themselves require.

I will look into the water parameters, but have already been told by plenty of reputable local wholesalers in my area that it's suitable for my particular needs.

I've read your comments thoroughly regarding fish choices.
I agree that one or two less species, but greater numbers of the ones I go for is a good bet.

The hatchetfish might be one to come off due to the numbers they'd need to be kept in and their accidental suicidle tendencies!
Is there another fish that could take up that top area of the tank though? Possibly the pencils leaning more towards the top?

Noted on the Pencilfish. The Coral Ruby is a favourite, so that's the one to go for and I can increase numbers.

BleedingHeart is off the cards in that case, I shall check the other options. The ember is beautiful, so that might make the cut and would mean more to a group being a lot smaller.

Re: Corys. Would I be better off with one species with say 12 fish or two species with 6 in each or even three species with 4 of each?
I wouldn't want more species if they then don't socialise...

Thanks again, looking forward to feedback.

 

[Essjay]

Edward, just type your postcode in here https://www.southernwater.co.uk/how-hard-is-your-water
Picking a Brighton postcode at random, it seems you have hard water in the region of 14 german deg.

I can't find any other water data on the site such as pH or nitrate, though UK water companies never seem to give alkalinity (KH)

 

[EdwardWouldWood]

Cheers essjay, I've used that online tool and it's given me the following results -

108.8 Camg/L
272 CaCO3mg/L
15.23 German deg

Does that completely count me out for water hardness or is there a way of changing it somehow?

 

[Byron]

If those numbers are accurate, this is a problem; many of the fish being discussed will need softer water to be healthy. The explanation as to how fish are affected is involved, so I will bypass it for now, and move to your question on adjusting parameters.

This is possible, but takes some effort. Preparing suitable water initially is relatively easy, but when one factors in having water on hand for regular weekly partial water changes, things get complicated. And in an emergency if substantial water changes are needed, even more so. But it is possible.

The only safe and effective way to get softer water is to dilute the source water with "pure" water. Rain water, RO (reverse osmosis) and distilled water are the usual "pure" waters. Diluting the source water with one of these is proportional, i.e., mixing half source with half pure will result in water with half the GH/KH of the source. Roughly speaking, half/half would give you a GH around 7 dGH, which is at the high end of being soft, and there are species being considered that would manage easily with this. If you do decide on some of the more delicate species, the water will have to be closer to "pure" than this.

The other often-suggested methods are not that effective, or safe. Water is soft because the mineral content is low to non-existent, and the organics are high. Adding wood, dried leaves and/or peat will work to soften and acidify water, but this is subject to the initial buffering capacity of the water, determined by the initial GH and KH. The higher these are, the more resistant the parameters will be to lowering. Once you dilute the source water, this makes further minimal lowering in the aquarium easier and more likely, so at that point the organics will have somewhat more effect.

To respond to the habitat question in post #3...most of the streams and creeks in South America are devoid of plants. Marginal vbegetation that overhangs the watercourses is usually thick, so sun rarely penetrates into the water. This is why dim overhead lighting for such tanks is recommended. Light does impact fish health, considerably. Floating plants are the ideal and easy way to replicate this in the aquarium, as they shade the lower part, provide a "roof" that the fish appreciate (and expect), and they are easy to grow and still provide the advantage of live plants removing substances from the water. Below the surface, the watercourses are often thick with wood as bogwood, tree roots, tree trunks, and branches; wood is organic and thus helps with water parameters and quality. The natural substrate may be mud or sand, or a combination, so sand works best in the aquarium; mud is not very practical. Some species, like cories, need sand. The substrate is frequently covered by a fairly thick layer of dead dried leaves that slowly decompose (this will further help your soft water needs).

Byron.

 

[KopDS]

Hi Edward,
I'm in the same kind of area (Southwick for me), the results from southern water are generalised in my experience. It might be worth testing your water yourself to give yourself a real picture.
Also do you know which store you are likely to buy from?

 

[EdwardWouldWood]

Hi Edward,
I'm in the same kind of area (Southwick for me), the results from southern water are generalised in my experience. It might be worth testing your water yourself to give yourself a real picture.
Also do you know which store you are likely to buy from?

Hi KopDS,

Thanks for your advice. I'm actually in Worthing, so, still very close.
I was thinking of stocking from MaidenHead Aquatics - Worthing Garden Centre Littlehampton Road, Ferring, Worthing BN12 6PW.
Do you know it? I will get my water tested in that case. Is there a good kit to buy online?

 

[KopDS]

Generally I recommend API kits, they do make a KH and GH water test kit.

Personally I don't use maidenhead aquatics for livestock as I don't think they are the greatest. If you want healthy, happy fish at very resonable prices I'd suggest going to Aqua fish on Bowness Avenue in Lancing (personally i think its the best store for at least 20 mlies in any direction). The two gents that own and run the store are both really passionate about fish keeping so keep all the fish in prime condition and they are always happy to help in my experience.

 

[EdwardWouldWood]

Hey kopDS,

I was considering using them after popping in there and seeing their set-up, but they've not replied to any of my e mails for weeks and weeks.
Perhaps I'll give them a call and see if they're having IT problems.
Really put me off as if they're not prepared to respond now, why would they after taking my money!

Thanks for the reply, good to have advice from someone close-by.

 

[KopDS]

I do rate aqua fish highly, they tend to be quite quick with replying via Facebook messenger if that helps.
I know people who have had disease and quality issues at maidenhead Ferring (ich, internal parasites and fin rot to name a few) which is why I've steered clear of them.
I have heard mixed reviews about beyond Atlantis at Lyons farm recently, they used to be reasonably rated but I haven't used them in a few years (since I found aqua fish).
Aquatic village at Haskins roundstone has some fair feedback I believe but limited options for livestock.
Pets at home is an absolute no go for me, my wife uses them for cat products but every time I see their fish I'm appalled (that applies to Lyons farm, Rustington and Hove stores).
Maidenhead aquatics Findon is supposed to be better than Ferring but i have never used them.
Squires off of the A24 in the Washington area are ok for good priced aquariums when on sale but I wouldn't buy their livestock.
Mayberry garden centre fish store is absolutely abysmal, they had fish species completely mislabelled and some clearly very ill fish on sale.
I had also heard some good reviews about a store in Broadwater but never went and cannot recall the name.

That's my tuppence worth anyhow.

 

[EdwardWouldWood]

I do rate aqua fish highly, they tend to be quite quick with replying via Facebook messenger if that helps.
I know people who have had disease and quality issues at maidenhead Ferring (ich, internal parasites and fin rot to name a few) which is why I've steered clear of them.
I have heard mixed reviews about beyond Atlantis at Lyons farm recently, they used to be reasonably rated but I haven't used them in a few years (since I found aqua fish).
Aquatic village at Haskins roundstone has some fair feedback I believe but limited options for livestock.
Pets at home is an absolute no go for me, my wife uses them for cat products but every time I see their fish I'm appalled (that applies to Lyons farm, Rustington and Hove stores).
Maidenhead aquatics Findon is supposed to be better than Ferring but i have never used them.
Squires off of the A24 in the Washington area are ok for good priced aquariums when on sale but I wouldn't buy their livestock.
Mayberry garden centre fish store is absolutely abysmal, they had fish species completely mislabelled and some clearly very ill fish on sale.
I had also heard some good reviews about a store in Broadwater but never went and cannot recall the name.

That's my tuppence worth anyhow.

Thanks for the insider knowledge. I've e-mailed Aqua fish again and if I don't hear back, I'll give them a call or FB message.
Sad to hear of all the other places where the fish's welfare isn't number one priority.
If you're ever in or close to Worthing, let me know and I'll thank you with a cuppa and pick your brains some more!!!

 

[KopDS]

Will do, in the mean time feel free to message me here.

 

[EdwardWouldWood]

All being well with water parameters in my area, this is my latest stocking list. I've dropped the varieties and upped the group numbers. Please feel free to feedback -

Ruby Red Coral Pencil Fish x 9

Cardinal Tetra x 11

Lemon Tetra x 11
OR
Black Neon Tetra x 11
OR
Ember Tetra x 13

Spotted Headstander x 7

Corydoras (type TBC) x 9

 

[Byron]

All being well with water parameters in my area, this is my latest stocking list. I've dropped the varieties and upped the group numbers. Please feel free to feedback -

Ruby Red Coral Pencil Fish x 9

Cardinal Tetra x 11

Lemon Tetra x 11
OR
Black Neon Tetra x 11
OR
Ember Tetra x 13

Spotted Headstander x 7

Corydoras (type TBC) x 9

I would reduce the headstander number; five would be max, and then expecting some to die. I had three last a few years in a huge tank, and I never once saw them "shoal," so while they are technically a shoaling species, I suspect they do very well in fewer numbers.

The Lemon Tetra are quite active for the other species here, so I would not include them. Ember Tetra are nice, if you get the true species which is a lovely reddish orange. The more yellow variety is rather washed out.

The upper half of the tank is going to be rather deserted here...all these fish are mid to lower level swimmers.