saltwater setup

[Aussie_Star]

hi,
i have no idea about saltwater setups thats why im am asking..lol
i have a 65 gallon tank that i might start off as a saltwater setup, i have a heater air pump , canister filter..do i need a preotein skimmer? or is there something else that i will need.
Im am just going to put some Green Chromis if i get it going maybe two clowns aswell.. yea so what else would i need?
thanxs any info would be great plus any websites aswell

 

[Navarre]

Get a good pprotien skimmer and as much live rock as possible. The live rock will be your main filtration, the skimmer will add support. Use the cannister filter as extra circualtion only and remove the medium inside (good area for pod and seasquirt colonies in there).

If you want corals then you will need btter lighting

 

[Aussie_Star]

well now that i have a spare tank , im going to do it as saltwater. It is a standard 4ft tank...so howmuch live rock would u sugguest and what brand of protein skimmer?. I have two powerheads already plus sand. So i think i need a good skimmer and live rock... plus lighting and heater

Do u need a filter if u hav alot of live rock? or just to be safe to have one... I will be setuping it up as a reef tank then may get fish.. not sure yet.. plus give me any info

 

[Navarre]

Live rock is an excellant choice, Im afraid i amnot really qualified to recomend a good skimmer as i rarely use them and im also not that familiar with brand names outside of europe.

If you have alot of live rock then there is no need for any other form of filter although if you can lay your hands on an external filter then you could use this for keeping things like Carbon or Rowaphos etc.


Salt water tanks tend to use live rock, macro algeas, sand beds or mangroves etc for the primary source of filtration. Trickle filters are still popular also.

 

[Aussie_Star]

so if i get enought live rock dont need a skimmer?. How much would be enough for a 55 gallon tank?...i can get another filter, would a canister be the better choice? or dosent matter as long as its external and it can store carbon in it?

 

[Aussie_Star]

navarre, u got any pictures of ya tank.. could u post them or the link to them .. thank you

 

[Navarre]

Ok here are a few piccys.

This is the most recent set of pictures. I added 40lbs of Reef Bones (unseeded rock) and this can be seen among the live rock as the white coloured rocks. Over the course of about 8 weeks it will colour up and be indistinguishable from the others.

The right hand side in more detail.

The left side

The Center

One of my acros. Most of my acros as still tiny frags but this is large enough for a decent photo. Its changing colour now from brown to purple with white polyps

My Venusta Angel, Asfur Angel and Emperor Tang swimming as a shoal. They often do this (maybe its a purple/yellow thing ) You wouldnt beleive that 2 weeks ago my Emperor tang (Ming the Merciless) wanted my asfur and venusta dead!!! HE spent a week in teh "Sin bin" (Sump) they are all best buddies now though

My Asfur

This tank is run purely on Liverock and mineral mud/macro algeas. No other form of filtration or even skimming. I even use Natural sea water in this tank and it seems to be working well.

Its possible to run a tank on live rock alone but i would advise the use of a skimmer to back it up if this was done.

 

[Def]

Navarre, can you confirm whether I'm right in thinking live rock is only live if it's been in water pretty much constantly? You can take it out to transport it, but if you don't keep it in water during transport then it dies off?

And if you add 50% live rock and 50% er... dead? base? (not sure of the term, I mean "not live") rock, over time the life on the live rock will slowly colonize the base rock?

 

[Navarre]

Navarre, can you confirm whether I'm right in thinking live rock is only live if it's been in water pretty much constantly? You can take it out to transport it, but if you don't keep it in water during transport then it dies off?

And if you add 50% live rock and 50% er... dead? base? (not sure of the term, I mean "not live") rock, over time the life on the live rock will slowly colonize the base rock?

Live rock doesnt need to be kept submersed in water during transportation. However it should be well packed and kept wet. This will minimise the life dieing off on the rock.

These days, live rock is being transported all over the world and not placed in water. (if it was then the freight costs would be astronomical). The longer the liverock is kept out of water the higher the chance of someo f the organisms dieng off, however a trip from your lfs to your tank would not usually do any harm to the rock.


To keep costs down alot of people buy Reefbones (dead live rock) and place it among matured living rock. (this is what i have donein my tank). SLowly over time the dead rock will become seeded and life will regrow on the new rock.

It takes about 8 weeks for this white dead rock to get a decent covering of Coraline algea. At this point its very hard to tell the difference in looks between live rock and reefbones. During this time the unseeded rock will already be well on the way to being fully colonised with the all important bacteria to complete the nitrogen cycle.

Lastly the life itself on the rock.. all thise tube worms and fan worms etc.. pods and brittle stars. all these will eventually grow on the rock but it will take up to 1 year for it to regain its population fully again.

It will be a fully functioning filter within a few weeks but the life will take a bit longer.

 

[Aussie_Star]

man, i love that tank . Its exactly what i want. Now did know did you get the reef to staying into the w shape?.

With the none live rock, from what you said, if i put dead rock under the life rock, after time it will become live, casue of the bacteria and stuff, it that right and you would be able to tell the difference from it, after time. Is that right?

With the cannister filter, you take out the media and what would i put in there???

How many watts per gallon do you need?, it is the same as a tropical planted tank?, or marine setups dont need a certain about of light per gallon, i got no idea

The mineral mud system, i was reading the other posts and came across it, i have a spare 15g tank, so would it be better to make a MM sump/tank? All i would need is a return pipe is that right?. And in the MM can u put your heater and skimmer in it?, saving space in the main tank?.

And with the MM would it go, From tank to downpipe, throught the MM (with heater and skimmer in it) into the return pump and back into the tank?, So i wouldnt need a cannister filter at all then, beside growing them things you were taking about, lol


But i think my main problem is going to be getting good uncured or cured live rock, i only have to shops that i have seen, well ok looking live rock but they are about an hours drive eachway and i cant find any australian companys that will ship anything lol

Yea anyways thats it
I found your fish navarre, just beautiful

 

[Navarre]

Thanks for the kind comments, Im glad to be able to share the pictures with you all.

OK lets try and answer some of these questions (and im sure that when i do it will open a whole can of new questions ).

Its exactly what i want. Now did know did you get the reef to staying into the w shape?.

Yes the shape was designed by me before the tank was even placed on its stand. I had a picture in my mind as to how i wanted the tank to look. Of coure you can never be sure what shape of rock you will get but i was prepared to wait to find the right looking rocks for the tank.
The entire structure of the rockwork sits upon a reefrack that is cut to this shape and was placed in the tank before anything eles was placed in.

This was a design a drew whilst the tank was being built for me.

And this was the tank at my home just after the first part of the reef rack was in place. As you can see the shape of the rock follows the eggcrate closely.
The shelves in the corners were originally put in the tank but they could not hold th weight of the rock i wanted on here so i removed them.

With the none live rock, from what you said, if i put dead rock under the life rock, after time it will become live, casue of the bacteria and stuff, it that right and you would be able to tell the difference from it, after time. Is that right?

Thats right
Basically, "Reef bones" is live rock that has been removed from the ocean and left on the docks for a few months. Its exactly the same makeup as live rock but its simply been dried out. By adding it back into the water along with "living" live rock then it will gradually regain its former glory! Its cheaper (about 1/3 of the price of living rock) and as long as you already have good quality live rock then after a few months your wont tell the difference.

[/QUOTE]With the cannister filter, you take out the media and what would i put in there???

I dont put anything except a couple of spnges to help take out tiny particles in the water. this is then food for the Pods that live within the external. People can use the external for many things, Bioballs, sponges etc but to be honest its relly not needed. What it is good for is to create a space that you can add treatments etc. Rowaphos (for removing phosphates) and Carbon is just a couple of reasons.
Lastly, Its always agood idea to add more flow to the tank. A reef tank should operate at 10x the volume of water turnover per hour as an absolute minimum. I am aiming for 30x turnover but i got a long way to go yet. So by using an external filter this helps increase the flow within the tank.

How many watts per gallon do you need?, it is the same as a tropical planted tank?, or marine setups dont need a certain about of light per gallon, i got no idea

A difficult question to answer really. Many people operate on a watts per gallon but i dont. Corals are so varied its hard to cater for them all with a single setup. Some corals like lower light levels. Some like as much light as you can give them. I would personally advise to get the most powerful lights you can over the tank. Its easier to crete shaded areas than to create brighter ones later.
T8s are fine for fish only systems or low light loving corals. T5s are excellant for All soft corals and maybe some hard corals if they are close to the surface. Halides are great for acros and other reef building hard corals. Halides are expensive and crete alot of heat. This becomes an issue for small tanks as they evaporate or overheat too much. If you are considering anything less than 40 UK gallons than i would say T5s would be fine for almost anything you want.

i have a spare 15g tank, so would it be better to make a MM sump/tank? All i would need is a return pipe is that right?. And in the MM can u put your heater and skimmer in it?, saving space in the main tank?.

This would be great! You will need a return pump yes and a way of getting the water into the sump. If the tank is not drilled then I would advise an overflow system. These can be purchased from most LFS. Yes a heater and other equipment can go in the sump. You do not need a skimmer with a MM system. the system is designed to run without one. Some people do run MM systems though with Skimmers.

And with the MM would it go, From tank to downpipe, throught the MM (with heater and skimmer in it) into the return pump and back into the tank?, So i wouldnt need a cannister filter at all then, beside growing them things you were taking about, lol

Basically Yes

i only have to shops that i have seen, well ok looking live rock but they are about an hours drive eachway

Live rock will easily survive a journey of this length.
I live in the UK and we dont ahve any reefs near us ( i mean coral building reefs).
We get our live rock flown over from Fiji and the pacific etc. This live rock can take up to 48 hours to reach Europe (longer if its stuck in customs). When it reaches the suppliers it is still in remarkable condition and 90% is still fine! For safety its best to cure it in the shops before sale so that the dieback can be treated. However a journey of 24 hours is perfectly acceptable. An hours journey will not harm any potential live rock you wish to purchase.

Hope my answers have helped in some way.

 

[Aussie_Star]

The tank is 43 (UK) gallons, i will be checking the LFS on the weekend for suppiles and prices, My uncle is an electrician, so we may be able to save some money in the lighting department.... well i hope

Are the overfollow boxs, a hang on filter?, cause i have a spare one which has no motor, so i would be able to use it??
So i would run a pipe from the box to the sump ,though it and back to the tank via the return pump.

In the sump with the heater, wat else would i need? air pump ....

And do you have a cleaner crew?, i have seen them in everyones tank list saying 'Clearner crew', but they dont say what they are, any ideas. I think one is a boxer shrimp, my LFS has them

With the sand, i live on the beach, so can i use sand from there?, or u wouldn't recommend it.

Your help is the best ever, think i own you a carton of beer lol

 

[Aussie_Star]

Nararre, have to you seen these eco aqualizer product

Here is the link to the site Eco Aqualizer

i think they would work great in a marine setup

 

[Navarre]

Are the overfollow boxs, a hang on filter?,

No Im afraid they are not.
An overlfow box is a box which creates a syphon to flow water into the sump.
There is a link in one o f the other posts in the marine section, Iwill see if i can find it and post it here too.

In the sump with the heater, wat else would i need? air pump

In the sump i have the following. Heater (switchedd off as the tank is already running hot) and the return pump.
The miracle mud (Mineral Mud in my case) and various forms of Macro algeas for nutrient export. I also have a small collection of Mangroves for Nutrient export.

There is no need for an air pump as it is more important to get gas exchange with water movment rather than air bubbles.

And do you have a cleaner crew?,

Yes i have cleaner crew. Not enough at the moment to be honest but i buy a batch every month to catch up as I have beena bit lazy in building their numbers up.
I would recomend that you have at least 1 crew per gallon of water. Sounds alot but its really worth it. This doesnt mean you have to buy the lot right away, what i suggest people do is each time they go to their lfs and make a purchase then add a single snail or hermit to the list. So if you go and get food, add a snail... buy a fish then get a hermit etc.. this way the price is spread out and doesnt feel as painful


I have the following:
2 Sand sifting stars (you only want 1 for a tank your size)
10x redleg hermits
30x Bluelegs
3x Cleaner shrimps
3 Blood Shrimps
20 Cerith Snails
20 IO Snails
10 Astrea Snails

I think one is a boxer shrimp, my LFS has them

I wouldnt recomend a boxer for beginners. Not that they are difficult to care for (quite the opposite in fact). But they can and will kill your cleaner/blood shrimps etc. They are very adept at cornering small fish or shrimps and killing them Unfortunately most lfs dont tell newcomers this and they are purchased in innocence.
Im sure that many will reply now saying that they keep boxers in their tanks with no trouble but I personally wont take the risk (even in 100 gallons) Shame though because they are possibly my most favorite shrimp! )

With the sand, i live on the beach, so can i use sand from there?, or u wouldn't recommend it.

Now this is something i really dont feel confident in advising on. As you are aware by now i run my system as naturally as possible. I did look into collecting sand from the areas around where i live but the sand would serve no purpoe other than looks as it doesnt have the calium buffers in it from the coral reefs. Therefore I got the proper sand as this does more than just look pretty in the tank. It also help keep the PH stable which is important in a marine setup.

However, I am not sure what the sand is like in your area of Australia. Your watters are far better suited for reef fish than mine and perhaps its ok to use this sand. However, it would still be nervous as sand can act like a sponge and keep all sorts of unwanted toxins deep within. (Loads of Oil tankers have sunk off our coast and the sand in some areas around my coast is extremly high in Nitrates and phosphates if you dig down just a couple of feet.)

I would personally do alot of research before using sand locally. Even then I would probably feel safer using "prepared sand" from a shop, atleast you can be sure its not going to give you problems.

think i own you a carton of beer lol

Spoken like a true Australian! I wish i didnt live so far away now!

 

[Navarre]

Nararre, have to you seen these eco aqualizer product

I havent use it before but on another Board that i use it has had alot of discussions... I wont post lijks to that board for obvious reasons but i will take some quotes and place them here.

I have had an eco-aqualizer for almost a year now but have not used it for a while as it has 1/2" fitting

I installed a 3/4" one ,that I got from Nigel, last night on the return from my sump

My tank has been a bit cloudy recently so I was amazed and delighted when I got home tonight and found that it was crystal clear

Coincedence - I don't think so

Mike, I trust that you will not take offence when I will say my piece ! My argument is not with you but with the....oh, can I say that ?

(a) For years, charlatans have been promoting magnetic devices to cure water problems. They claim that they work, they stand to gain financially if someone buys them.

Coincidence ? I don't think so.

(b ) For years, scientists have been investigating these claims. None has stood up to study.

Coincidence ? I don't think so.

(c ) The creators of Eco A have (if you believe them) a product which would turn science on its head, would win Nobel prizes and untold wealth for its founders should they choose to exploit it.

Instead, they target the a small niche hobby and don't publish any objective data supporting their claims.

Coincidence ? I don't think so.

Already, far too many coincidences.......and I am not even warmed up !

no offence taken

all I can say is that my tank which has been cloudy for weeks is now crystal clear

how it works I dont know and I am not commenting on all the claims made fot the EA but as far as improved water clarity goes I have seen a dramatic improvement in 24 hours

Having read through the posts about eco aqualisers it seems to me that a lot of people are of the opinion that it improves the "sparkliness" of the water. Regardless of the question of how this product achieves such an effect (and this is the issue which some people get hung up about, [although personally I don't have the foggiest idea how a space shuttle gets people into space; however it still does...]) such an argument should not detract from what is potentially a useful tool.

It is easy to see how the more scientifically inclined might be skeptical, I am I have to admit a skeptic myself. I have read that some of you have attempted to make a comparison of water quality parameters both before and atfer using the aquilizer, which I feel is somewhat missing the point, which is does eco aquilizer water allow more light to pass through it? What is needed is not subjective observations of water "sparkliness" but objective measurement of water clarity... this can be achieved with such a simple device as a secchi disc, or a roll of photographic film- In a set time frame does the film develop to a higher degree through aquilizer water than normal water? Of course to keep the scientists amongst us happy somebody with two tanks would need to carry out this experiment one with the eco aquilizer and one without as a control, and for comparative purposes.

Please don't misconstrue this post as a rant or undue criticism, it's merely an observation- I am as interested as the next person to see if this product does what it claims!

Interesting points - however IMO what can work for one reefkeeper may have no or even the opposite effect for the next!. I think we have too many variables at play here. Clarity might be caused my one inorganic compound working against another - or even impacting the amounnt of DOC. Gawd knows.

I think the best we are going to get is to find what works for some people empirically and try it on our own systems. Sometimes it will work, sometimes not, sometimes cause problems.

If the Eco A works, if there is a measureable effect it will work on any system since it is alledged to create a physical effect based on some sort of far infrared technology or whatever it is.

If the effects that the makers claim are there and are physical then they will happen to all tanks. The degree to which it will improve a given tank may vary with time. Drawing a parallel when you put a heater in your tank it will heat the water, the time taken to raise it to 28 deg c will depend on how hot the water is to start, the power of the heater and the amount of water.

If the Eco A removes something from the water in one tank it should do it in all tanks. After all skimmers work on all tanks, the amount of gunk removed is a function of how good the skimmer desgin is, how much water flows through it etc. is there anyone who has tried a skimmer and found they never work on their tanks?

The bottom line is the space shuttle flies through space based on well established science, you can read aboutit in any good physics book. Slimmers work on a well understood principle, go find a good physics text book with the 'theory' from the sale literature for the ECo a product.

Only wish id though of it and had the nerve to make and sell it.

JMHO

Ithere is a board somewhere your side of the pond that stripped one down and unless it was a hoax it was magnets and sitcky tape inside.

Thing is with this item the claims made by the manufacturers would appear to f;ly in the face of established science ie in what effects the magnets are supposed to have.

If they have found a new effect this is not only of commercial but scientific intertest maybe its worthy of some propoer research and publication of proper data.

It doesnt exist or should i say that if it exists why do they not publish it or publicise where the work has been documented?

I know the answer and so do they

These are quotes from members of another board i use. Many of them are people that have far greater knowledge in the running of reef tanks than i ever will. I really cant comment on the product as I have never used it but i hope that the quotes i have placed here will give you an idea as to whether its worth a purchase or not.

Sorry i could not be of more help.