Ro Water Needs Replenishing?

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sokoleo

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Hi, I've just begun the journey of using RO water to dilute some tap nitrate issues I'm having (about 30ppm), and some pH issues (7.6 in tap, 8.4 in tank), detailed in another thread. 
Wanted to ask about the quantity of RO to use and if by still using my tap water I am destined to keep these high nitrates and pH values?
 
Will 50:50 RO to tap be good enough to keep the minerals but dilute the pH and nitrates slowly by using it during water changes?
 
Or am I best using 100% RO for water changes and using Seachem Replenish or Equilibrium that I have only just found out exists? Do I need to add Replenish even if I'm just using 50%?
 
I know I am in a hard water area but don't know KH/GH etc.
 
Please bear with me with stupid questions, I am just entering into the whole world of water quality.
 
Thanks
 
I would help but I don't know much about RO, and I wouldn't want to state something false. but I know if you use the same tap water, I don't think it would stay the same, for forever :eek: I personally think it would change to more neutral  (PH)
 
By using RO at a 50% ratio you will take out half of what ever is in your tap water. I'm in a similar position to you in that my tap water is very hard with an average of 16ppm nitrates and high levels of posthates. If I don't RO at all my nitrates creep up to 30ppm even though I vacuum the substrate at least 3 times a week and do 2x 30% water changes a week.
 
When you have mixed your water 50/50 test the parameters again and add in any shortfall of minerals if required. The only other thing I would add is if you are changing the PH do it slowly as you could shock your fish.
 
To play my broken record, if your source water was nitrate free and your tank generates 20ppm nitrates weekly, a 50% water change reduces your tank nitrates to 10ppm. By the next week, tank nitrates are up to 30ppm. A 50% water change reduces to 15ppm and the next week they're at 35ppm - they just keep climbing. You can't win with partial water changes alone, EVEN if your source water is nitrate free, let alone if it's 30ppm or reduced by 50/50 RO water to 15ppm!
I have high nitrates (40-80ppm) in my well water and I use a homemade nitrate filter using an API Tap Water Filter filled with API Nitra-Zorb. I get about 200g before I need to recharge with salt water.
 
I guess you can try with your 50/50 mix if you have lots of plants to aid in nitrate filtration, keep your bio-load low, feed high quality foods (and don't overfeed), and keep your filter and substrate clean. Without plants, you might leverage products like Nitra-Zorb and Purigen pouches in your filter to reduce tank nitrates.
 
Note: if your water is hard (you really need to test kH and gH) you can most likely reduce 50/50 with RO without any additives for minerals....otherwise Seachem Eqilibrium (w/acid & alkaline buffers for pH) is better for planted tanks than Seachem Replenish.
 
Tank on,
   -Michael
 
 
Wanted to ask about the quantity of RO to use and if by still using my tap water I am destined to keep these high nitrates and pH values?
 
Will 50:50 RO to tap be good enough to keep the minerals but dilute the pH and nitrates slowly by using it during water changes?
RO water will dilute the minerals and nitrates equally.   50:50 might work or it might not It will depend  on your tank and other things.  You will just have to try it and see how it works.
 
 
 
Or am I best using 100% RO for water changes and using Seachem Replenish or Equilibrium that I have only just found out exists? Do I need to add Replenish even if I'm just using 50%?
For an supplanted tank Equilibrium or Replenish will work but they do not contain all the elements plants need.  If you want plants you are better off with Seachem Flourish Comprehensive which has everything plants need.  I don't have nitrates, just hard water.  So I do 100% RO with Flourish comprehensive. 
 
Hi, Thank you for all replies. I think from them I am going to use 50:50 RO/tap, diluting the high nitrates and pH in my tap with lower values in RO. Hopefully this will lessen the problematic values and still be enough to keep plants alive. 
The Flourish excel is different to Flourish comprehensive? Would this be a good thing to use - I read it can combat hair/beard algae, what about diatoms? I am still getting these after 18months and have attributed it to my high nitrates...
I have Purigen/matrix in the filter. 
 
Flourish Comprehensive and Flourish Excel are two very different products.  Comprehensive is a relatively complete nutrient supplement (containing 14 of 17 required nutrients, only carbon, oxygen and hydrogen are not included).  Flourish Excel is a so-called liquid carbon supplement.  The fact that Excel does sometimes kill certain algae (not diatoms so far as I know) should sound warning bells; some plants like Vallisneria will be killed by using Excel at recommended doses, and should it be exceeded it has the ability to kill plants, bacteria and fish.  It contains glutaraldehyde, which is a highly toxic disinfectant.
 
Unless you are attempting a high-tech system, with mega light, and daily nutrient supplements, you should not need a carbon supplement, and then it should be diffused CO2 which is less dangerous.
 
Reducing nitrates will likely solve your algae/diatoms problem.  Problem algae of any sort is due to an imbalance in the light/nutrient area.  Nitrates higher than what the plants can use--and this is quite minimal to begin with--will lead to problems.
 
Byron.
 
Sokoleo,
 
In same sitaution as you with high nitrates coming out of tap at new house.  I RO'd at my old house and will have a new system put in at this house.  I have always used Seachem Equilibrium and Alkaline buffer for the past 5 years.  I have read and have been told that Equilibrium is better than Replenish for tanks with plants.  Whether or not Equilibrium provides all the necessary nutrients for plants is somehting I can't answer.  It states it is for replenishing RO water for plants, but we all know that is always not 100% accurate.
 
Btw, did not see your old thread but I spent a lot of time investigating PH and here are a couple of things I have found (folks may have more detail to add)
1.  If you let your water sit out of the tap with an aerator on it for 24 hours the PH will rise as CO2 leaves water.
2.  In fact, unless you have something in your tank like a CO2 system, having running filters (that break waters surface causing agitation) and aerators will always cause your water PH to rise. 
3.  After I Ro'd my water I messed around with the alkaline buffer and the acid buffer in conjunction and all it did was adjust the PH for a short period of time and raise the TDS (total dissolved solids) of my water.  I stopped doing this.
 
I spent a lot of time talking with Seahem directly about this.  Basically I would not advocate chemicals to adjust your PH.  Again, there may be some people that have different opinions but most I talk to don't recommend chemicals to adjust PH. 
​You can find plenty of good information on this topic on the internet. 
 
BTW...good call Michael on the basic math around reducing nitrates.  If your tank setup removes 0 nitrates( no plants), then as Michael shared you can figure out, for example, that with 40ppm a 25% water change get's you down to 30ppm provided water source is at 0.  If your tank is producing 15 ppm nitrate per week than the following week you will be at 45 and a 25% water change will....etc. etc...
 
Thanks,
jason
 
I may be able to add a bit of explanation.
1.  If you let your water sit out of the tap with an aerator on it for 24 hours the PH will rise as CO2 leaves water.
2.  In fact, unless you have something in your tank like a CO2 system, having running filters (that break waters surface causing agitation) and aerators will always cause your water PH to rise.
 
 
In (1) the pH is not actually rising per say, but the test result may be a higher number.  This is due to the dissolved CO2 that may enter the tap water as it travels from the source to your tap.  CO2 creates carbonic acid which lowers the pH.  Allowing any dissolved CO2 to dissipate out of the tap water prior to testing--and this can be achieved by allowing the water to sit for 24 hours or by very briskly agitating it--will result in a truer reading, which may be higher than without these measures depending upon whether there is CO2 or not.
 
In (2), this should not be occurring.  By the time the water has entered the aquarium, and certainly after a period of 24 hours, the pH is not going to rise further due to filtration or aeration.  However, there is the natural diurnal fluctuation in pH that occurs in nature and the aquarium, especially with live plants in the tank; here, the pH will be at its lowest at the beginning of the day, and highest at the end of the day--day meaning the brightest light period.  During daylight (brightest light, which is normally the tank lighting) the pH rises as CO2 is taken up by the plants, but during darkness the pH lowers as CO2 builds up.  CO2 is continually being produced in the aquarium, from the respiration of bacteria, plants and fish, but more by the breakdown of organics primarily in the substrate.  In a "natural" or low-tech planted tank (using no artificial CO2 diffusion) this CO2 can be sufficient for the needs of the plants.
 
Other factors affect pH in the aquarium.  The presence of calcareous substances such as limestone, marble, coral, shells, dolomite, aragonite, etc. will increase the pH and GH as these slowly dissolve.  Sand/gravel and rock composed of such minerals/substances are the prime source of this.  But one can also artificially induce this by adding "buffers," but here things get more complicated.  I'll come back to this momentarily.  Another factor at work in the aquarium is the presence of organics that are slowly broken down by bacteria.  This by itself will lower the pH because CO2 is produced, adding carbonic acid to the water.  This aspect however is influenced by the initial "buffering" capacity of the source water, determined by the GH (general harness) and KH (carbonate hardness or Alkalinity); the higher these are, the stronger the "buffering" and the less the pH will change.  I'll come back to this when commenting on chemical adjustment of the pH.
 
3.  After I Ro'd my water I messed around with the alkaline buffer and the acid buffer in conjunction and all it did was adjust the PH for a short period of time and raise the TDS (total dissolved solids) of my water.  I stopped doing this.
 
I spent a lot of time talking with Seahem directly about this.  Basically I would not advocate chemicals to adjust your PH.  Again, there may be some people that have different opinions but most I talk to don't recommend chemicals to adjust PH.
 
 
Adjusting pH can only be effective if the GH and KH are also targeted.  The three aspects of water chemistry are closely related.  As I mentioned above, the lower the GH/KH, the less "stable" will be the pH and it will more readily be affected by "adjusters."  However, these are temporary at best, because they do not target the GH/KH side of the equation, and this may cause the pH to fluctuate, which is more serious for fish.
 
So, if you want to lower the pH, you must lower the GH/KH.  The pH is relative.  Raising the pH means increasing the GH/KH.  This is very simplistic, but the point I want to make is that pH adjustment is a very involved aspect of water chemistry.  You must first understand the tap water parameters and go from there, but recognizing that targeting these parameters is going to cause chemical reactions that have other components too, so it is not straightforward.
 
I have read and have been told that Equilibrium is better than Replenish for tanks with plants.  Whether or not Equilibrium provides all the necessary nutrients for plants is somehting I can't answer.  It states it is for replenishing RO water for plants, but we all know that is always not 100% accurate.
 
 
These two products are designed to raise the mineral content of the water, the GH.  Equilibrium works best for plants, because it adds several "hard" minerals that plants need, namely calcium, magnesium, iron, zinc and manganese.  The GH will increase accordingly.  Replenish is not as effective for plants, according to Seachem.
 
The problem using any of these is the effect on fish.  Now, if the tank has very soft water, it is best suited to fish species that require this, or to say it another way, fish whose physiology functions best (= less stress to the fish, thus better health) in soft water.  Increasing the GH for plants or anything else will have some effect on soft water fish, so it should be carefully considered.  It may not be necessary, as I have discovered over the last couple of years.  There may be safer methods, but this is another topic.  Alternatively, if hard water fish are maintained, the GH/KH/pH must be higher for the fish, but using these products is not the most effective way of dealing with this situation.  Another topic of its own.
 
Byron.
 
Wow, so much info, thanks guys - I will have to go back to read and digest for a third time but I am definitely learning lots.
So glad I asked about the Seachem products, they don't tell you all that stuff on their blurb! I think for the level of plants I am wanting to keep that I don't want to risk my fish by using such harmful products and risking, as a newbie, getting it wrong.
 
 
Will using 50:50 RO/tap stop the increasing nitrate calculation sufficiently? Would you rather use this mixture to halve the issues of using all tap (with high nitrates, hardness, and pH), or all RO (With it's lack of minerals and requiring replenishing).
 
 
Bearing in mind this is for a nano tank with 2 guppies and one plant, not a high tech set up, but still wanting to do the best to keep them happy and most of all, algae at bay.
 
I have a lot of aeration maybe this is affecting pH. I will definitely do a test in a morning for hopefully a different take on my pH levels.
 
Again, thanks for helping out a newbie. Hopefully I will get this new set up right and it won't be such a disaster as my old set up. Still anxious about changing too many factors and shocking the fish during the move. I am currently introducing more and more RO with each water change but won't go above 50:50 just yet.

A second thought - maybe the fact that I have 2 filters running at the moment, and producing more nitrates than my 2 guppies are excreting, is causing a large amount of nitrates?
 
o glad I asked about the Seachem products, they don't tell you all that stuff on their blurb! I think for the level of plants I am wanting to keep that I don't want to risk my fish by using such harmful products and risking, as a newbie, getting it wrong.
 
Many of us forget, or perhaps don't initially realise, that every substance added to the aquarium water gets inside the fish.  Fish don't "drink" because they are continually taking in water via osmosis through every cell of their body, plus in the gills during respiration.  Not everything going in the water is necessarily going to harm or kill the fish, but it does get inside them and this means they have to deal with substances internally in the bloodstream and organs that they would not ever encounter in their habitat.  So keeping that in mind, when fish are present in an aquarium, the fewer substances we add the better, always.
 
This past year in dealing with a problem in one of my eight tanks I came to the realisation that much of the plant fertilisers I have been adding were frankly unnecessary.  And they contributed to high organics which caused other issues, and problem algae.  Less is always wiser.  Work up from nothing to use what is needed, rather than overloading and then having to deal with issues.  This is also safer as it allows the natural biological processes to stabilise and remain relative so; adding any substance usually impacts these processes somehow, and finding how is not always easy when things go wrong.
 
Will using 50:50 RO/tap stop the increasing nitrate calculation sufficiently? Would you rather use this mixture to halve the issues of using all tap (with high nitrates, hardness, and pH), or all RO (With it's lack of minerals and requiring replenishing)
 
A second thought - maybe the fact that I have 2 filters running at the moment, and producing more nitrates than my 2 guppies are excreting, is causing a large amount of nitrates?
 
 
I am basically leaving the nitrate resolution for the other members in this thread who have dealt with this problem (nitrates in the source water I mean), something fortunately I do not have.  I will however comment on your question I cited here.  First, nitrates occurring in the source water is a distinct problem and needs resolving before the nitrates get into the aquarium, more or less.  
 
Nitrates occurring within the aquarium is a very different issue, and should be easy to resolve: not overcrowding, not overfeeding, not over-fertilising plants, regular partial water changes, keeping the substrate and filter cleaned, live plants, etc.  Each of these factors impacts nitrates.  The number of filters should not, because nitrate is the end product of the nitrification cycle, in which ammonia produced by the fish and bacteria and organic processes is changed into nitrite by one set of Nitrosomonas bacteria, then the nitrite is changed into nitrate by a second set of Nitrospira bacteria.  So technically the nitrate level is only going to be the result of the ammonia to nitrite to nitrate process, which begins with the amount of ammonia entering the system.  It doesn't matter if there is no filter, one filter, or two filters; this is not going to impact the amount of ammonia/nitrite/nitrate.  This is a simplistic explanation but should suffice to deal with the filter question.
 
The nitrification cycle is only the first part of the process.  The nitrates resulting from the nitrification are then dealt with by plants (this is minimal), different bacteria (primarily in the substrate), and partial water changes removing some.  The bacteria aspect is de-nitrification, during which various bacteria use the nitrates; some use them to produce oxygen, others result in the nitrate changing back into the original nitrogen as nitrogen gas which is released into the air.  Again, I am being simplistic, but I think you will see the point.
 
I have a lot of aeration maybe this is affecting pH. I will definitely do a test in a morning for hopefully a different take on my pH levels.
 
 
As I explained previously, this is not too likely, or more correctly, not going to have much impact.  The surface disturbance caused by aeration and filters may increase the gas exchange that naturally occurs at the surface, whereby oxygen enters the water and CO2 is driven off.  CO2 can enter the water too, depending upon levels to begin with.  But generally speaking, the pH will be determined by the initial pH of the source water, the level of minerals and carbonates, organics from the fish load/foods, and bacterial processes.  Again, partial water changes and maintaining a clean filter and substrate (relatively speaking, you don't want to over-do this for other reasons) all help to stabilize the pH.  And each aquarium can be different, even with identical source water.  I have varying pH levels in my 8 tanks, yet my source water is the same, all tanks are planted, fish load are relatively similar, etc.
 
Remember that because of the diurnal variation in pH, you should always test pH at roughly the same time each day if you want a better idea of what it may be doing.  Generally, testing it in the early morning, shortly after the tank lighting comes on, works best, as it will be at its lowest and you will get a good idea of what is occurring day to day.
 
Byron.
 
Once again I have to say that treating high nitrates in source water by using an RO or RO/DI system is resolving the issue the hard way. Simply filtering the nitrates out of the source water is not only much easier but far more economical.
Nitrate filtration does not require high input pressures, water waste or mineral reconstitution. There are many nitrate filter systems available and most of these use a resin that can be recharged and reused many, many times with ordinary (aquarium or non iodized table) salt !
 

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