Ram's fry disappearing

[Saro]

Hello everyone,

This is my first post as me and my partner could not understand why this keeps happening.

We have a couple of Ram like this one:

And they constantly spawn. The first time they just ate their eggs but after that we've been having loads of fry for around 5 times. They really do eggs quickly after the previous fry has died and this is the problem.

The fry is usually very lively and swimming around with the parents. They protect them from other fish and carry them in their mouth to move them around and keep them in a group. We feed them liquifry and baby shrimp brine but after 3/4 days they are less in number and slow down.
Then when they're around 40 all of a sudden they disappear. All of them.
We are not sure if the parents eat them or what else, but we can't find bodies. This happens every single time and we are now frustrated as we've been trying to give them all they need.

What could be the problem, they always seems to stop at the same stage.

Thank you,
Saro

 

[Colin_T]

Hi and welcome to the forum

What you describe with the fry and parents looking after them is normal behaviour from the parents, eg: they guard the eggs and look after the babies. Depending on what else is in the tank will determine what is eating the babies.

Generally cichlids might eat the first few batches of eggs and fry while they are learning how to become parents. However, if it keeps happening you need to look at the other species in the tank. At 4-5 days old the babies will be moving around more and exploring and other fish in the tank will quickly snap them up if they get too far away from the parents. The other possibility is a power filter sucking the fry up during the night. You can usually prevent this by raising the intake tube up so it is higher in the tank, and putting a sponge filter over the intake strainer.

If you have any other fish in the tank besides the rams, the other fish are most likely the culprits.

If it happens at night try leaving a low wattage light on the tank for a week and see if you still lose young. Nocturnal fishes like loaches, eels and catfish will eat baby fish when its dark.

 

[Byron]

Before this can be answered, more data is needed.

First, I cannot see the photo in post #1, and I am wondering if you do have "rams." Neither species, being Mikrogeophagus ramirezi for the common or blue ram (and all varieties) or M. altispinosus for the Bolivian, are mouthbrooders. I have never come across evidence that these species carry the fry in their mouths. If you cold load the photo we can confirm the species.

Second, what other fish are in this tank? While the parents (whichever one is tending eggs/fry) are generally successful at protecting the eggs or fry during daylight, they are totally unable to do this at night. As Colin pointed out, any nocturnal fish, such as most all catfish including cories, will easily get the shoal of fry during darkness. However, the solution is not to keep the tank light on, or any sort of "night light," as this will harm all the fish. They must have several hours of total and complete darkness (the room must be completely dark too) each 24 hour period.

Third, if the male/female did not bond, their parental success will be tested. The fish will not accept any partner, though spawning can still occur even if they do not bond. But success is more limited.

 

[Saro]

Hi and welcome to the forum

What you describe with the fry and parents looking after them is normal behaviour from the parents, eg: they guard the eggs and look after the babies. Depending on what else is in the tank will determine what is eating the babies.

Generally cichlids might eat the first few batches of eggs and fry while they are learning how to become parents. However, if it keeps happening you need to look at the other species in the tank. At 4-5 days old the babies will be moving around more and exploring and other fish in the tank will quickly snap them up if they get too far away from the parents. The other possibility is a power filter sucking the fry up during the night. You can usually prevent this by raising the intake tube up so it is higher in the tank, and putting a sponge filter over the intake strainer.

If you have any other fish in the tank besides the rams, the other fish are most likely the culprits.

If it happens at night try leaving a low wattage light on the tank for a week and see if you still lose young. Nocturnal fishes like loaches, eels and catfish will eat baby fish when its dark.

Hi Colin and Byron,

Thanks for your replies and input, much appreciated.

The only other tank mates are two Otocinclus (130 L tank), there were some Amano shrimp but the last one sadly jumped out recently. The rams don't seem too bothered with them, they occasionally 'move them along' by nudging them but that's about all the interaction between the species. The Otto's are very peaceful, I understood they are herbivores, correct me if that's wrong, I would be surprised if they had eaten the fry.

The fry have disappeared in the middle of the day, on several occasions. Twice I noted this occurred after a liquify feeding and thought perhaps it may be related? Maybe the parents got spooked and decided to eat them, as they are extremely defensive when anything enters the tank. We stopped using liquify just in case.

The pair do appear to be bonded, this happened very soon after I introduced two males... they then ganged-up on the other one and killed it. Each time they spawn (7/8 times now), after the fry have started swimming, the male then becomes extremely possessive of the brood and aggressive to the female and wont allow her near them for a period. I have read this is normal and apart from the chasing that goes on between the spawning, they seem to be bonded as a pair.

I think the our external filter outlet might be the culprit, I will investigate some foam, should they make another attempt and raise it in any case.

 

[Colin_T]

Otocinclus are vegetarian and won't be causing the problem.

Shrimp will take baby fish at night but since there are none left that won't be happening.

Baby cichlids can normally take newly hatched brineshrimp as soon as they start swimming so you shouldn't need to use liquid fry for them. If you do want to use liquid fry, add a couple of drops of it to a phial with 5-10ml of tank water. Shake the water and liquid fry up and pour it in the tank so it spreads out as it moves around the tank.

There is info on hatching brineshrimp eggs at the following link.
http://www.fishforums.net/threads/back-to-basics-when-breeding-fish.448304/

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If the water is not suitable the shrimp might jump out of the tank. However, the rams could be attacking the shrimp at night and causing them to panic and jump out of the tank. If you have lots of plants in the tank, the fish and shrimp will feel more secure and be less likely to eat the fry, and the fry will have some microscopic food to eat on the plant leaves. Water Sprite is the best floating plant and can also be planted in the substrate, but Ambulia and Hygrophila polysperma & ruba also work well. These plants should be planted in the substrate.

 

[Saro]

It happened again.

Couple of weeks ago new fry appeared, and we decided to feed them 4 times a day and keep an eye on them as much as possible.
After the usual male staying with the fry and pushing away the female, the two seemed to be together in parenting for a couple of days.
They were catching the ones going away and spitting them back in the group. It all seemed good and the parents weren't fighting. It was the weekend and we were able to take care of them all.

Then I went on the other room for half an hour. I came back and... all of the fry disappeared.
It was really upsetting, this was like the twentieth time they've done it. I searched on other forum and we have no doubt now that the parents eat them every time. We should've separate them when we could.

After that, a behavior we haven't seen before started. The female is constantly chasing the male. It always used to be the other way around, but now it's her bullying him, all the time.

She also looks way bigger and he seems to have "shrunk" in size. His top fin it's always down, he barely swims, and constantly hide. He used to be the boss in the tank and now he looks like totally powerless. What happened?

We are not sure if more fry will ever come, as something seems to have changed between the two...

 

[Colin_T]

It's possible both parents are eating them but it might only be one. Next time remove one of the adults and leave the other to raise the fry. If they disappear then let them breed again and remove the other parent. You might be able to leave the fry with 1 adult to rear up.

If you add some dither fish to the tank, the parents will normally chase the other fish and spend more time guarding and less time eating their young.

If worse comes to worse and both parents eat the fry, get a couple more males and females and put them together in a new tank and let them pr off naturally. You might have a pr that breed but don't like each other and offer them new partners might help.

 

[Cichlid4life]

i don't know much about this, but why is your tank covered in that cobwebby green stuff?

 

[Colin_T]

The green stuff in the pictures is algae. Different types of algae grow in different shapes and some can look nice and some cob webby

 

[Byron]

The interaction between the two blue rams that you describe in post #6 is identical to what I witnessed between my two Bolivian Rams. It indicates the pair did not bond, and at this point they are not going to. One of them will be dead before very long, usually the female. My Bolivians spawned four times after I introduced the female to the male in a 5-foot tank, and three times the egg clutch disappeared at night, and once the shoal of fry disappeared during darkness. In my case I believe it was likely the cories, but it may have been the rams themselves; it would seem to be in your case with no other fish present. But the certainty is that the pair did not bond.

 

[Saro]

It has been a long time, but I wanted to tell the end of the story.

The male ram started to hide in between leaves, very close to the surface, not moving and not even going around for food.
One of his fin was half size, as if it has bitten off. Also his eyes became totally black, which I though was weird.

He was like this for maybe even 2 weeks, until we found him dead.

I'd assume his fin has been ripped away by the female, but don't know what was wrong with his eyes. Once dead, they were back as normal (with "white" around the pupils).

The whole experience has been really unpleasant, and for sure we're not taking any Blue Rams (or similar) anymore in the future, nor we recommend them to anyone else.

P.S.: The female is still alive.