New Tank Set Up

[jimlester]

If only I would have found this forum before I purchased my fish!!!

Basically, i bought a 65l tank from my LFS and after running it for a few days, i purchased (on their advice) a number of so called "hardy fish" These included 4 neon tetra's, 4 mollys, 1 bronze cory and two red platys.

The LFS advised me to return with a water sample after one month. At first things appeared to be ok, but then I noticed that gradually only the mollies were eating the fish flakes that i added. I contacted the LFS and was told that the fish needed time to settling in and things would be ok. After finding the two platys and the tetra's dead I immediately took a water sample upto the shop. I was advised that the nitrite level was very high and i would need to change 15% of the water and add some good bacteria (which i purchased from the shop).

I made a further three trips to the LFS for more advice and further water samples. I lost more of the fish and they told me the reason was that the mollys were scaring the other fish into not eating and the food that was not being consumed was poisoning the water. The mollies then died and only the cory was left. I was ready to give up my new hobby and sell my equipment as it saddened me amd my partner so much.

At this stage I found this forum and started making my own decisions. I purchased a API test kit, started making regular water changes (upto 20%) and after the ammonia and nitrite levels reduced substantially, i purchased 4 new neon tetra's and they all seem to be doing fine on the reduced amount of food i am currently feeding them. Unfortunately i lost the cory but am sure the damage was done with the earlier water quality.

As i do not have any confidence with my LFS whatsoever, i am posting my most recent test results and would ask whether i can add another cory in order to help keep the gravel clean, or something else or should i wait for more consistant readings. I am very reluctant to add any other fish at this stage if there is a chance they will destabilise the water.

08.12
PH High - 8. Amm - 1. Nitrite - 0.25. Nitrate - 10

10.12
PH High - 8. Amm - 0.50. Nitrite - 0.25. Nitrate - 10

12.12
PH High - 7.8. Amm - 0.25. Nitrite - 0.25. Nitrate - 10

Is my PH still to high? If so, how do i reduce it?
Should i wait for the Ammonia and Nitrite readings to be nil. If so, how will i achieve this?

Don't want to run before i can walk so any advice will be appreciated.

 

[dayzofspeed]

first of all welcome to the forum. what you have described is unfortunately very common and you shouldnt beat yourself up about being given poor advice from someone you rightly assumed to be an expert. I am no expert as i have sort of bumbled along with fishkeeping for about 4 years, thankfully my tank is now stable and established, probably more by luck more than anything i did. What you need to do is cycle your tank in order to set up a healthy population of bacteria, i cant advise on this as like i just said i think my tank just cycled itself over time but rest assured there will be advice given to you by people who are more knowledgable, but by joining the forum you are now on the right road and these guys will help you and i'm sure by following their advice you wont give up........ good luck
Kevin

 

[jimlester]

first of all welcome to the forum. what you have described is unfortunately very common and you shouldnt beat yourself up about being given poor advice from someone you rightly assumed to be an expert. I am no expert as i have sort of bumbled along with fishkeeping for about 4 years, thankfully my tank is now stable and established, probably more by luck more than anything i did. What you need to do is cycle your tank in order to set up a healthy population of bacteria, i cant advise on this as like i just said i think my tank just cycled itself over time but rest assured there will be advice given to you by people who are more knowledgable, but by joining the forum you are now on the right road and these guys will help you and i'm sure by following their advice you wont give up........ good luck
Kevin

Hi Kev

Thanks for your assurance. Hoping to receive some valuable advice.

Jim

 

[the_lock_man]

Hi Jim,

You still have ammonia and nitrite showing from your test results, so, from what I've read, I think it's wise not to add further fish until you get consistently 0s for both of these. I assume you have read the fish-in cycling article in the Beginners Resource Centre (if not, the BRC is here). You need to keep doing sufficient water changes to keep your test results under 0.25ppm. So if you had, say, a nitrite reading of 0.5ppm, you would need to do a 50% water change, just to get to 0.25ppm - but you would then need to do another change fairly quickly, as further nitrite builds up.

You may well find that the new batch of neons also die, I understand that they are quite sensitive to ammonia and nitrite. If they do, then I would say it would be sensible to switch to fishless cycling (again, see the BRC )

Your pH is fine, btw, mine is about 7.8 as well.

 

[waterdrop]

Hi Jim and Welcome to TFF!

Yes, you are definately in what we call a Fish-In Cycling Situation and the best first articles to read are The Nitrogen Cycle, The Fish-In Cycle, The Fishless Cycle and a couple of the general startup articles such as the one by Miss Wiggle.

Your situation is somewhat urgent and the suggestions, although in the correct direction, are too hesitant! A tank that shows both ammonia and nitrite at the same time and that is known to be a new tank with no cycling procedure having been performed and with fish in, needs to receive quite large water changes to get the Fish-In cycling process started properly. Often these poisons can hang out in the gravel and other low-circulation areas and resist initial correction if the water changes are not big.

I suggest that the first 2 or so water changes (possibly 2 a day or 1 each day during this initial period) be 75 or 80% or basically such that the fish just have enough puddle room to not be uncovered prior to the refill. All water changes should be performed with good technique: Use a gravel cleaning siphon and deep clean the gravel as the current tank water siphons out. use a catch bucket even if you are draining to the garden, yard or tub so that you can capture a cup for temperature matching. The return water should be conditioned (treated to remove chlorine/chloramine (in fact I recommend this be 1.5x whatever the bottle tells you)) and roughly temperature matched (your hand is close enough for this.)

In a fish-in cycling situation you are trying to be a bit of a detective and figure out (its different for every tank) the percentage and frequency of water changes that will keep your ammonia and/or nitrite(NO2) from exceeding 0.25ppm (as measured by your liquid kits) before you can be home again to change water again. It's a very tough month or month and a half of work sometimes if you have more than the ideal number/size of fish for a fish-in cycle (ideal is quite a small number.) You don't want to bring the levels just down to 0.25ppm because you need headroom for them to grow back up to 0.25 as the max perhaps 12 hours later. It's a very narrow band and changes quite quickly in smaller tanks.

Unfortunately, you also were given a difficult initial stocking of fish to work with. Your species are two and two at opposite ends of the water chem spectrum: The neons and corys would thrive in very soft, acid water and the platies and mollies like hard water, with the mollies actually -needing- very hard water. I would have roughly said the platies were the only fish appropriately called hardy but the mollies are so happy in your hard water that they are handling the non-cycled poison situation the best!

Additionally, Neon Tetras are among the most extreme examples of fish we find it better not to cycle with or even introduce early on. Many experienced aquarists have observed that for some reason neons do better in a tank that has "aged" at least 6 months (not a typo, 6 months!) and this is mostly un-related to the tank being cycled or the ammonia/nitrite being zero. It is some other parameter - we don't know what - but it's just an accurate observation in my opinion. It's not that they will all die, it's just a statistical thing but I feel it is a correct observation and is in addition to them being quite poor at transport and acclimation. The cory probably just handled the poisons less well given that the water was hard instead of soft.

You will find that water changing will be your friend and will hopefully be your first good learning skill from our forum. It's a very, very important bit of knowledge.

By the way, your hard water (my assumption based on your high pH of 8) puts you up in the ideal range for growing the specific two species of bacteria you need and you may actually get a good fish-in cycle in less than a month with that parameter if you are lucky. The members will help you along. You can also read other threads for entertainment and learning. We have plenty of beginner's cases going at any given moment.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[jimlester]

Thanks for that informative reply Waterdrop.

I've carried out a 75% water change, when refilling the tank, I noticed there still seems to be quite alot of bits in the water. Should i carry out an immendiate water test for ammonia/nitrite at this stage?

I shall carry out another 75% change tomorrow when i've purchased another bottle of water conditioner.

I've also just remembered that i was advised to rinse out the sponge in the filter after a month, should I also do this? I am aware that should be done in water that has been removed from the tank.

 

[dayzofspeed]

it might also be worth testing your tap water too,

 

[waterdrop]

Agree, tap stats are always helpful for us commentators. NO, do not perform maintenance on your filter media in any way during a fish-in cycle unless you get serious slowing of flow. You do not want to disturb the fragile bacterial colonies at this stage any more than you have to.

I doubt the little white bits you saw after your water change are anything to worry about. They are probably the little bits of white/gray biofilm/fungus we see on lots of surfaces on new tanks. That stuff is all harmless and won't be around after your tank starts getting a few months under it's belt.

If you're off to buy conditioner, I'd recommend Seachem Prime. If you compare conditioners by cost per treated gallon/liter the whole picture of conditioners changes. Prime is very concentrated and can save you a lot of money in the long run. This can also be accomplished eventually with some of the pond dechlor products but they are not as good at handling other types of problems that pertain to beginner mistakes and very new tanks - for that there seems to be little else that compares to Prime, at least from the comments of many, many TFF members over a number of years.

~~waterdrop~~