Need Assistance - Planted Tank

[sammclean23]

Hi All,
 
I currently own a juwel 190 litre tank. It is well established (8 months) and has had plants growing for sometime. In recent months though, I've seen tanks of a much higher quality and the plants are arranged so much nicer. One tank that really stood out is one consisting of Vallis and Java Fern (thanks to the identification thread).
 
My tank was like follows, however, many anacharis are now dislodged & brown and I always wake up to more floating round.
 

 
So a few things,
 
is my gravel suitable for planting? The tank came with this but personally I think it is too big for the roots to root properly. If a change is required, could I simply add to it?
 
I did a change from gravel to sand in a 20l tank and it took hours, really don't think that's possible here.
 
Any advice in general?
 
Also, why the 300kb limit for attachments?
 
Thank you!

 

[BerryAttack]

for my planted tanks i have it dirtied with small to medium size gravel to cap it. the plants grow faster and look way better then just a gravel bottom. never put sand with dirt, because you'll have a mess on your hands.
if you want a low tech tank, you'll need the proper lighting which you can use grow lights for potted  plants for a planted aquarium, which will work. then you'll need a lot of nutrients for the plants, which you can do a dirted bottom. just make sure you cap it.
if you look on youtube at http/www.youtube.com/user/Dustinsfishtanks he has tons of videos about planted tanks, etc and he is low tech guy, which is nice.

 

[sammclean23]

for my planted tanks i have it dirtied with small to medium size gravel to cap it. the plants grow faster and look way better then just a gravel bottom. never put sand with dirt, because you'll have a mess on your hands.
if you want a low tech tank, you'll need the proper lighting which you can use grow lights for potted  plants for a planted aquarium, which will work. then you'll need a lot of nutrients for the plants, which you can do a dirted bottom. just make sure you cap it.
if you look on youtube at http/www.youtube.com/user/Dustinsfishtanks he has tons of videos about planted tanks, etc and he is low tech guy, which is nice.

 
Dirtied? Is that a layer under the gravel? If so, how the hell do I get that under the gravel. Would it literally be a case of emptying the gravel then replacing one at a time.

 

[D34DLY]

You're after a tank substrate which is not too fine but also not so large all you're plants float away. Having really small particles (the smallest grains of sands you can buy) causes problems such as the introduction of anaerobic bacteria. This is when the substrate (or sand.) is compacted so deep and tightly that the bed is starved of oxygen - providing the ideal home to lethal bacteria. 
 
With regards to Anacharis floating up - this is normal and what is expected of this particular plant (also known as the Elodea or "Pond Weed" due to how uncontrollably easy it grows.) You will find that this plant often has no roots below the substrate, this is because it can be used as a floating plant or a planted one. This does not mean it cannot grow roots however! I have had this plant myself, and found many interesting things happened when I put it in my tank in different ways.
 
If you're sure that you want it to be planted rather than floating on the surface of the water (which is perfectly fine for the plant by the way) simply remove the leaves from the bottom of the stem up to the depth of the gravel. (leaving them attached to the plant while it is buried will cause them to rot under the gravel and produce lethal ammonia). Now simply push the plant to the bottom of the gravel using your index finger and your thumb. (it may be necessary to do circular motions to get it to the bottom) Try to give the plant as much support as possible to avoid the stem snapping. If the stem does snap, you may have to retrieve it or else it will decay.
 
After a few weeks of being planted, the plant will begin to shoot roots from the bottom of its stem. Although they are not complex root systems like the Amazon Sword, which form like a spider's-web, it will help aid it in keeping it down.
 
Word of warning with the Vallis (I presume you mean the Vallisneria Spiralis) - leave it alone once planted! I almost lost two of mine when I planted them as I couldn't decide where to put them and so kept unsettling them. With these, you must plant them and leave them.
 
Also, by "dirtied" I believe BerryAttack meant "dirt." What she did was "layered" the substrate on top of each other. This can be quite complex, and messy. Afterall, once down you cannot stir it. Not even once.
 
If you wish to change the substrate, it may be a case of completely emptying the tank, and all whats inside it. Either pour the gravel in a bag or scoop it with your hands - whichever is easiest. Then you must add the sand/new substrate and water. (which order you do it in is upto you. I personally put the sand in last.)
 
Lastly, there is an attachment restriction to keep this forum free. All websites are hosted on a server. These servers can only hold so much data (data which is used up for every single website page, image etc.) If everyone uploaded an attachment, all of these pictures would then go onto the server which they pay for. Once a server gets full, they must relocate to one which is bigger... and more expensive. If they have to do this - they'd have to start getting means of money to pay for it.
 
Any questions? Just ask

 

[sammclean23]

You're after a tank substrate which is not too fine but also not so large all you're plants float away. Having really small particles (the smallest grains of sands you can buy) causes problems such as the introduction of anaerobic bacteria. This is when the substrate (or sand.) is compacted so deep and tightly that the bed is starved of oxygen - providing the ideal home to lethal bacteria. 
 
With regards to Anacharis floating up - this is normal and what is expected of this particular plant (also known as the Elodea or "Pond Weed" due to how uncontrollably easy it grows.) You will find that this plant often has no roots below the substrate, this is because it can be used as a floating plant or a planted one. This does not mean it cannot grow roots however! I have had this plant myself, and found many interesting things happened when I put it in my tank in different ways.
 
If you're sure that you want it to be planted rather than floating on the surface of the water (which is perfectly fine for the plant by the way) simply remove the leaves from the bottom of the stem up to the depth of the gravel. (leaving them attached to the plant while it is buried will cause them to rot under the gravel and produce lethal ammonia). Now simply push the plant to the bottom of the gravel using your index finger and your thumb. (it may be necessary to do circular motions to get it to the bottom) Try to give the plant as much support as possible to avoid the stem snapping. If the stem does snap, you may have to retrieve it or else it will decay.
 
After a few weeks of being planted, the plant will begin to shoot roots from the bottom of its stem. Although they are not complex root systems like the Amazon Sword, which form like a spider's-web, it will help aid it in keeping it down.
 
Word of warning with the Vallis (I presume you mean the Vallisneria Spiralis) - leave it alone once planted! I almost lost two of mine when I planted them as I couldn't decide where to put them and so kept unsettling them. With these, you must plant them and leave them.

 
Also, by "dirtied" I believe BerryAttack meant "dirt." What she did was "layered" the substrate on top of each other. This can be quite complex, and messy. Afterall, once down you cannot stir it. Not even once.
 
If you wish to change the substrate, it may be a case of completely emptying the tank, and all whats inside it. Either pour the gravel in a bag or scoop it with your hands - whichever is easiest. Then you must add the sand/new substrate and water. (which order you do it in is upto you. I personally put the sand in last.)
 
Lastly, there is an attachment restriction to keep this forum free. All websites are hosted on a server. These servers can only hold so much data (data which is used up for every single website page, image etc.) If everyone uploaded an attachment, all of these pictures would then go onto the server which they pay for. Once a server gets full, they must relocate to one which is bigger... and more expensive. If they have to do this - they'd have to start getting means of money to pay for it.
 
Any questions? Just ask

 
excellent read!!! Thanks a lot! Cleared tons up there.
 
I did actually notice that they continued to grow once floating....
 
What I do wonder is if I should be using any plant nutrition/fertilising substances. I see tons of them online but has never really considered if I need to invest.
 
Also, it seems the only place to get decent plants (not anacharis and other beginner plants) is online, which I'm not entirely sure about.

 

[D34DLY]

excellent read!!! Thanks a lot! Cleared tons up there.
 
I did actually notice that they continued to grow once floating....
 
What I do wonder is if I should be using any plant nutrition/fertilising substances. I see tons of them online but has never really considered if I need to invest.
 
Also, it seems the only place to get decent plants (not anacharis and other beginner plan

 
Thanks! It means a lot when someone actually appreciates the time spent in posts.
 
So would argue that Anacharis grows in any condition, which explains why they're often grown in tiny cups on windows and in cold ponds!
 
Another argument would be that in fact, this "pond weed" grows much better in an aquarium when floating. Why? Well, plants requirements to grow are pretty basic (water, light, nutrients etc.), and although all plants need different proportions of these, same rules often apply when you increase only one of the requirements.
 
Let me explain this further...(This is where it gets confusing.)
 
Your aquarium has a "bank" of nutrients, light and CO2 in it's water column. Your anacharis uses as much of this as possible. However, It keeps the ratios all the same for each. Thereby meaning, if you doubled the strength of the light the plant got, but didn't up the CO2, the plant would not grow any faster as it'd still be maxed out on the CO2.
 
In order for a plant to grow as fast as possible, you must increase ALL of its nutrients accordingly. As explained above, only increasing the light, for example, and not anything else, will not help the plant to grow but instead increase the amount of light in your aquarium's "bank.". When there is light to "spare", this provides the best environment for algae. But that's another topic.
 
And so - this brings me back to the argument of whether or not a floating anacharis grows better than one which is planted.
 
A plant which is floating, understandably gets the strongest light (light strength weakens the deeper it gets in water.) Meaning, it can use this extra resource to its advantage. However. As I've tried explain above, in order for this plant to utilise the extra light, it must be provided with more of its other requirements.
 
So in short the answer for this argument is: "It depends."
 
So moving on to your next question (which nicely flows from the previous.)
 
"Should you add nutrients?"
 
Educated Answer: Well, it depends on your circumstances. Adding any nutrients won't be of any use, unless you increase the light and CO2. That is of course, if you don't have nutrients to spare already. If you find that adding nutrients doesn't help, then maybe nutrition isn't the issue. It could be the strength of your light, or the amount of CO2 in the water. With plants, it is all a guessing game.
 
Answer for you: By the looks of the picture you have supplied, my initial guess would be that "Yes - adding nutrients would help. Especially root fertilisers (often known as roots tabs)" My reasoning behind this is that Amazon Swords are dedicated root suckers (not an expert term. I just made it up. ) This means that they get 90% of the nutrients through their roots rather than through the water column and their leaves.
 
As your tank is gravel, this means that it holds no nutritional value at all. And effectively, the only nutrition the plant is getting is by the water getting under the gravel.
 
Nevertheless, adding any sort of fertilisers generally help. If you notice sudden algae, stop using it. This shows there is a surplus of nutrition now and the algae can grow. For now keep to liquid fertilizers or root tabs. Changing your substance to something other than sand could have no point.
 
Also - I'd have no fear with buying aquatic plants online! So long as they from the UK and have a guarantee of being alive when delivered, then all is ok! Check their estimated delivery date, Anything over 4 days is pushing it. Just remember that these ARE plants, and as much as we love and nurture them, they still just are plants and many land plants survive dieing every winter... so just bare that in mind
 
My posts keep getting longer Keep the questions coming and I'll try and answer them as briefly as I can!

 

[levahe]

A floating plant gets more light, but far more importantly has an unlimited supply of co2 due to being exposed to the air and therefore will grow better/faster and will use up more nutrients out of the water.
Nutrients/fertilisers are very important and should always be added to planted tanks. Algae is not caused by excess nutrients in the water, its caused by an imbalance of nutrients/co2/light.
If you have low light the plants have low co2 and nutrient needs. You could mostly get away without adding any co2 and just adding a small amounts of ferts.
If you have high light the plants would demand more co2 and fertilisers and become unhealthy if you didn't add any therefore allowing algae to 'out compete' the plants.
Most algae in a planted tank is caused by too much light, not enough co2 and/or not enough fertilizers. Also keeping the tank clean, doing gravel vacs and doing regular waterchanges help prevent algae as well, because it prevents a build up of organic matter which can create water quality issues.

 

[sammclean23]

 

excellent read!!! Thanks a lot! Cleared tons up there.
 
I did actually notice that they continued to grow once floating....
 
What I do wonder is if I should be using any plant nutrition/fertilising substances. I see tons of them online but has never really considered if I need to invest.
 
Also, it seems the only place to get decent plants (not anacharis and other beginner plan

 
Thanks! It means a lot when someone actually appreciates the time spent in posts.
 
So would argue that Anacharis grows in any condition, which explains why they're often grown in tiny cups on windows and in cold ponds!
 
Another argument would be that in fact, this "pond weed" grows much better in an aquarium when floating. Why? Well, plants requirements to grow are pretty basic (water, light, nutrients etc.), and although all plants need different proportions of these, same rules often apply when you increase only one of the requirements.
 
Let me explain this further...(This is where it gets confusing.)
 
Your aquarium has a "bank" of nutrients, light and CO2 in it's water column. Your anacharis uses as much of this as possible. However, It keeps the ratios all the same for each. Thereby meaning, if you doubled the strength of the light the plant got, but didn't up the CO2, the plant would not grow any faster as it'd still be maxed out on the CO2.
 
In order for a plant to grow as fast as possible, you must increase ALL of its nutrients accordingly. As explained above, only increasing the light, for example, and not anything else, will not help the plant to grow but instead increase the amount of light in your aquarium's "bank.". When there is light to "spare", this provides the best environment for algae. But that's another topic.
 
And so - this brings me back to the argument of whether or not a floating anacharis grows better than one which is planted.
 
A plant which is floating, understandably gets the strongest light (light strength weakens the deeper it gets in water.) Meaning, it can use this extra resource to its advantage. However. As I've tried explain above, in order for this plant to utilise the extra light, it must be provided with more of its other requirements.
 
So in short the answer for this argument is: "It depends."
 
So moving on to your next question (which nicely flows from the previous.)
 
"Should you add nutrients?"
 
Educated Answer: Well, it depends on your circumstances. Adding any nutrients won't be of any use, unless you increase the light and CO2. That is of course, if you don't have nutrients to spare already. If you find that adding nutrients doesn't help, then maybe nutrition isn't the issue. It could be the strength of your light, or the amount of CO2 in the water. With plants, it is all a guessing game.
 
Answer for you: By the looks of the picture you have supplied, my initial guess would be that "Yes - adding nutrients would help. Especially root fertilisers (often known as roots tabs)" My reasoning behind this is that Amazon Swords are dedicated root suckers (not an expert term. I just made it up.

) This means that they get 90% of the nutrients through their roots rather than through the water column and their leaves.
 
As your tank is gravel, this means that it holds no nutritional value at all. And effectively, the only nutrition the plant is getting is by the water getting under the gravel.
 
Nevertheless, adding any sort of fertilisers generally help. If you notice sudden algae, stop using it. This shows there is a surplus of nutrition now and the algae can grow. For now keep to liquid fertilizers or root tabs. Changing your substance to something other than sand could have no point.
 
Also - I'd have no fear with buying aquatic plants online! So long as they from the UK and have a guarantee of being alive when delivered, then all is ok! Check their estimated delivery date, Anything over 4 days is pushing it. Just remember that these ARE plants, and as much as we love and nurture them, they still just are plants and many land plants survive dieing every winter... so just bare that in mind

 
My posts keep getting longer

Keep the questions coming and I'll try and answer them as briefly as I can!

 

 
Honestly, even if my reply is short I much appreciate the reply and can guarantee i've read it in detail!
 
Fertiliser looks like the best option then, including the reply following yours also. However, as you said though, my gravel holds no nutritional value, so does that mean things like Vallis are out of the question?
 
If im honest, I'd rather try fertiliser before considering c02 injectors etc. But as you said, c02 may not be a problem in my tank.
 
Ideally, I would love a dense planted aquarium and it seemed vllais/java fern seem to be the most dense that iv'e seen - could be wrong though?
 
If not, could you suggest anything else that is dense but would survive in my tank? (I know you don't know my water parameters but just using general judgement)
 
 

A floating plant gets more light, but far more importantly has an unlimited supply of co2 due to being exposed to the air and therefore will grow better/faster and will use up more nutrients out of the water.
Nutrients/fertilisers are very important and should always be added to planted tanks. Algae is not caused by excess nutrients in the water, its caused by an imbalance of nutrients/co2/light.
If you have low light the plants have low co2 and nutrient needs. You could mostly get away without adding any co2 and just adding a small amounts of ferts.
If you have high light the plants would demand more co2 and fertilisers and become unhealthy if you didn't add any therefore allowing algae to 'out compete' the plants.
Most algae in a planted tank is caused by too much light, not enough co2 and/or not enough fertilizers. Also keeping the tank clean, doing gravel vacs and doing regular waterchanges help prevent algae as well, because it prevents a build up of organic matter which can create water quality issues.

 
Cheers!!
 
I'm actually having to clean algae from the glass often, and have noticed a slight green tint to my water.
 
Looks like you've answered that question too there pal, thank you , and thanks for the explanation

 

[D34DLY]

Well I had a 42 litre tank before.
 
In there, I had one bunch of Anacharis, one amazon sword, and one vallis.
 
The substrate was gravel.
I also had low lighting. Apparently, it was the lowest end of the low... which is... low 

 
Nevertheless, the plants stayed strong! (However, they were VERY fragile. One disturbance and the next day they would decay. My vallis once went down to one lead 1 centimetre long.)
 
Really, it's all just a guessing game and using some visual signs in the tank to make your decision.
 
As you say that your experiencing algae, I would introduce some more plants to compete for the nutrients. Also, you ideas of Java Fern, Anacharis, Vallis are all actually pretty good, "educated" ones. Either you've done your research or just a very lucky person to have an eye for them! 
 
These plants are known as "Easy", "starter" plants. This simply means you can plant them and they'll grow without any special care like CO2 injections etc.
 
Do not fear - PLANT PLANT PLANT!
 
TIP: If a "dense" look is required, begin trimming your Anacharis.. Seems silly at first. But what you're really doing is stopping the plant from growing upwards but instead outwards. As cutting it at the top, often encourages it to shoot out one or two stems from it to continue its journey upwards. Constantly doing this can soon create a "jungle" effect! Another benefit from this is you can re-plant all the cuttings to create yet more anacharis
 
I'd also look into getting a stronger filter. Just out of interest, what is the one you have now? With more plants in the way, you'll need a stronger pull from your filter to keep it clean. This could also help with the algae

 

[sammclean23]

Well I had a 42 litre tank before.
 
In there, I had one bunch of Anacharis, one amazon sword, and one vallis.
 
The substrate was gravel.
I also had low lighting. Apparently, it was the lowest end of the low... which is... low 

 
Nevertheless, the plants stayed strong! (However, they were VERY fragile. One disturbance and the next day they would decay. My vallis once went down to one lead 1 centimetre long.)
 
Really, it's all just a guessing game and using some visual signs in the tank to make your decision.
 
As you say that your experiencing algae, I would introduce some more plants to compete for the nutrients. Also, you ideas of Java Fern, Anacharis, Vallis are all actually pretty good, "educated" ones. Either you've done your research or just a very lucky person to have an eye for them! 
 
These plants are known as "Easy", "starter" plants. This simply means you can plant them and they'll grow without any special care like CO2 injections etc.
 
Do not fear - PLANT PLANT PLANT!
 
TIP: If a "dense" look is required, begin trimming your Anacharis.. Seems silly at first. But what you're really doing is stopping the plant from growing upwards but instead outwards. As cutting it at the top, often encourages it to shoot out one or two stems from it to continue its journey upwards. Constantly doing this can soon create a "jungle" effect! Another benefit from this is you can re-plant all the cuttings to create yet more anacharis

 
I'd also look into getting a stronger filter. Just out of interest, what is the one you have now? With more plants in the way, you'll need a stronger pull from your filter to keep it clean. This could also help with the algae

 
Thank you for another detailed reply dude, much appreciated.
 
I had actually spotted these plants and researched into their requirements - i think this is why most aquarium shops sell them (excluding vallis, never seen this in shops).
 
The thing with the anacharis is, if not done right, the growing sideways thing can look a mess. But will try chopping and see what happens when they've grown sideways in the past it's been by accident.
 
My current filter is the standard one that comes with the Juwel Rio 180 mate - not sure if there's a name for it.

 

[D34DLY]

Back in the good old days, I used to walk into aquatic shops and just point and say "I like that plant? How much? Ok. I'll have it." I never researched, I just blamed the shop when it died.
 
However, now I know a thing or two about the plants I have realised the error of ways. Not only that, but I now also know the difference between an aquatic plant and a semi-aquatic plant! (Yes - one aquatic store did sell me a plant not meant to be fully submerged!)
 
Just my token or two to try and encourage you not to put all your trust in any shop.
 
I would also advise you in getting a better filter. Ones supplied with the tanks are often "ok" filters which just about do their jobs. But when you add decaying plants and fish poo, this "ok" becomes "no longer satisfactory". The manufacturers cut corners in everyway to try and keep costs down.
 
Oh and get chopping those anacharis! Sure, they may go a bit "lop-sided", but once you start planting them behind each other and filling in the gaps, they become more "branch" like. Besides, it's just my opinion, but I'm not to keen on single-stem anacharis! They always seem to bend and show any signs of water movement. They look droopy, and just... "erugh". Get chopping them. You'll thank me for it  
 
(Who knows.. maybe you could start selling the trimming once you're happy with their height!)

 

[sammclean23]

Back in the good old days, I used to walk into aquatic shops and just point and say "I like that plant? How much? Ok. I'll have it." I never researched, I just blamed the shop when it died.
 
However, now I know a thing or two about the plants I have realised the error of ways. Not only that, but I now also know the difference between an aquatic plant and a semi-aquatic plant! (Yes - one aquatic store did sell me a plant not meant to be fully submerged!)
 
Just my token or two to try and encourage you not to put all your trust in any shop.
 
I would also advise you in getting a better filter. Ones supplied with the tanks are often "ok" filters which just about do their jobs. But when you add decaying plants and fish poo, this "ok" becomes "no longer satisfactory". The manufacturers cut corners in everyway to try and keep costs down.
 
Oh and get chopping those anacharis! Sure, they may go a bit "lop-sided", but once you start planting them behind each other and filling in the gaps, they become more "branch" like. Besides, it's just my opinion, but I'm not to keen on single-stem anacharis! They always seem to bend and show any signs of water movement. They look droopy, and just... "erugh". Get chopping them. You'll thank me for it

 
(Who knows.. maybe you could start selling the trimming once you're happy with their height!)

 
Thanks mate!!! Helped tons. Shame there isn't a thank button on here.
 
I will get chopping, they seem to be browning a bit at the minute but sure they'll recover.
 
As for the filter, I understand what you mean but this is integrated into the tank perfectly and consists of 6 filter mediums and a decent flow. Reviews seem to steer towards a decent, standard filter. Obviously not of the standard of an external one though. And the fact none of my 20 neons have died - neons being the most softy in my tank! On the topic of my fish, I also have 2 4 year old white clouds :O
 
Thanks again, appreciate the assistance and advice

I will get more pics up as my tank develops