Need Answer Quickly, Tank Won't Cycle

[*Diego*]

Hi all

I work at a small, family owned pet store. It's a great place, we take wonderful care of everything. Anyway, we also do free water tests.

I have a customer who has a 10 gallon tank. She began the tank over 6 weeks ago with a cory, 2 guppies, and a danio.

A week or so after she began the tank, she started bringing water samples in so we could monitor the cycle. Everything seemed fine - ammonia had begun to rise, etc...

During Week 2, 2 fish died.

When she brought in her water sample Week 3, ammonia, nitrate and nitrite were off the charts. I recommended doing a 25% water change with the vacuum every 3-4 days.

Week 4: a guppy died. Another sample was brought in - no change in anything.

Week 5: Ammonia dropped down to 0. However, both Nitrite and nitrate were off the charts.

Week 6: Still Ammonia 0. Nitrate and nitrite off the chart.

This is the end of week 7, and she's bringing in another sample tonight at work.

I, for the life of me, cannot figure out what's going on.

She is not overfeeding, she is using a gravel vacuum, no sand substrate, just gravel, hasn't added anything "wrong" to the tank (like any chemicals other than Cycle/Aqua Plus/Waste Control).

She's very frustrated and fed up.

What do I suggest???
Thanks!

 

[ox5477]

Hi all

I work at a small, family owned pet store. It's a great place, we take wonderful care of everything. Anyway, we also do free water tests.

I have a customer who has a 10 gallon tank. She began the tank over 6 weeks ago with a cory, 2 guppies, and a danio.

A week or so after she began the tank, she started bringing water samples in so we could monitor the cycle. Everything seemed fine - ammonia had begun to rise, etc...

During Week 2, 2 fish died.

When she brought in her water sample Week 3, ammonia, nitrate and nitrite were off the charts. I recommended doing a 25% water change with the vacuum every 3-4 days.

Week 4: a guppy died. Another sample was brought in - no change in anything.

Week 5: Ammonia dropped down to 0. However, both Nitrite and nitrate were off the charts.

Week 6: Still Ammonia 0. Nitrate and nitrite off the chart.

This is the end of week 7, and she's bringing in another sample tonight at work.

I, for the life of me, cannot figure out what's going on.

She is not overfeeding, she is using a gravel vacuum, no sand substrate, just gravel, hasn't added anything "wrong" to the tank (like any chemicals other than Cycle/Aqua Plus/Waste Control).

She's very frustrated and fed up.

What do I suggest???
Thanks!

Well if anyone comes into buy a 10G, and it's not gonna be a hospital or quarentine, tell them to wait to buy fish until the tank is cycled. The fish are dieing because the ammonia and nitrite spikes are killing them. Some fish can't handle any presence off either of these and need a fully cycled tank. For her, tell her to stop adding new fish as it is just adding new strains on the filter and causing it to keep mini-cycling beyond what it's already cycling for. Yes, you can cycle with fish, but you need a hardy fish like danios. But i still wouldn't recommend it as you don't have to worry about fish at all when you just do a fishless cycle.

Beyond that, I would suggest doing a 25% water change everyday as that is what I do when I have my 10G quarentine/hospital set-up and it helps keep alot of the bad things out (NH4, NO2, disease). Every four days for a 10G might not be enough. I would suggest just telling them to get a bigger tank if her remaining fish die because as you prob know, the more water in the tank, the bigger the mistakes you can make before your fish start dieing and would prob be the best for a newbie.

EDIT:

I just noticed, she's adding all thoughs chemicals. You don't need waste control if you do consistant water change and vacuum (which you said she is) so tell her to stop that. You don't need those cycle chemicals. Companies say they help but you don't need them and adding any chemicals to your tank that you don't need to add is just asking for trouble. And just make sure that she is adding the right amount of the water conditioner. With 10G being so small, it's easy to add too much of the stuff and that can end up hurting the fish.


Good Luck with you customer!

 

[CruX]

I would say big water changes, and getting some mature filter media in there. My newest tank appeared to cycle quickly with my filter media and water from my old tanks. HoweverI had a bit of a spike with Nitrites raising to 0.25 ppm and nitrates going off the chart after adding new fish. One water change alone brought that down to less than 0.25ppm for the nitrite and the nitrates down to 20ppm. I would say from the advice given out here and from my own recent experience that big water changes are the key. I think from what I have read that the tank is running through the cycle if your ammonia levels have dropped to 0ppm.

Also many will say on here that it is better to cycle without fish as it is less cruel. I had to use my established fish from 2 tanks when I replaced them for new bigger tank as there was no room to keep all three running, I still feel guilty for it but I had to do it and to help it along I used as much of my oldtank water and all my filter media from the old tanks too to minimise the problems, I Keep telling myself that it was more like a big water change than acually cycling a new tank but I am an optimist.

More experienced people will confirm/correct what I have put but I would advise daily water changes for a start.

Well if anyone comes into buy a 10G, and it's not gonna be a hospital or quarentine, tell them to wait to buy fish until the tank is cycled. The fish are dieing because the ammonia and nitrite spikes are killing them. Some fish can't handle any presence off either of these and need a fully cycled tank. For her, tell her to stop adding new fish as it is just adding new strains on the filter and causing it to keep mini-cycling beyond what it's already cycling for. Yes, you can cycle with fish, but you need a hardy fish like danios. But i still wouldn't recommend it as you don't have to worry about fish at all when you just do a fishless cycle.

I would suggest doing a 25% water change everyday

Beaten to it.

 

[ox5477]

I would say big water changes, and getting some mature filter media in there. My newest tank appeared to cycle quickly with my filter media and water from my old tanks. HoweverI had a bit of a spike with Nitrites raising to 0.25 ppm and nitrates going off the chart after adding new fish. One water change alone brought that down to less than 0.25ppm for the nitrite and the nitrates down to 20ppm. I would say from the advice given out here and from my own recent experience that big water changes are the key. I think from what I have read that the tank is running through the cycle if your ammonia levels have dropped to 0ppm.

Also many will say on here that it is better to cycle without fish as it is less cruel. I had to use my established fish from 2 tanks when I replaced them for new bigger tank as there was no room to keep all three running, I still feel guilty for it but I had to do it and to help it along I used as much of my oldtank water and all my filter media from the old tanks too to minimise the problems, I Keep telling myself that it was more like a big water change than acually cycling a new tank but I am an optimist.

More experienced people will confirm/correct what I have put but I would advise daily water changes for a start.

Well if anyone comes into buy a 10G, and it's not gonna be a hospital or quarentine, tell them to wait to buy fish until the tank is cycled. The fish are dieing because the ammonia and nitrite spikes are killing them. Some fish can't handle any presence off either of these and need a fully cycled tank. For her, tell her to stop adding new fish as it is just adding new strains on the filter and causing it to keep mini-cycling beyond what it's already cycling for. Yes, you can cycle with fish, but you need a hardy fish like danios. But i still wouldn't recommend it as you don't have to worry about fish at all when you just do a fishless cycle.

I would suggest doing a 25% water change everyday

Beaten to it.

Def agree with the water changes as this is a simple step to solve most problems, and if you are moving filter media and water, then it makes it so the fish did just go through a big water change....

But when the tank just started with no mature media, then it can be extremely hard on fish and I would encourage against it....but if it's too late, like in the case of your customer, then jsut tell them to do atleast a 25% water change every day and the problem should solve itself.

 

[CruX]

I would say big water changes, and getting some mature filter media in there. My newest tank appeared to cycle quickly with my filter media and water from my old tanks. HoweverI had a bit of a spike with Nitrites raising to 0.25 ppm and nitrates going off the chart after adding new fish. One water change alone brought that down to less than 0.25ppm for the nitrite and the nitrates down to 20ppm. I would say from the advice given out here and from my own recent experience that big water changes are the key. I think from what I have read that the tank is running through the cycle if your ammonia levels have dropped to 0ppm.

Also many will say on here that it is better to cycle without fish as it is less cruel. I had to use my established fish from 2 tanks when I replaced them for new bigger tank as there was no room to keep all three running, I still feel guilty for it but I had to do it and to help it along I used as much of my oldtank water and all my filter media from the old tanks too to minimise the problems, I Keep telling myself that it was more like a big water change than acually cycling a new tank but I am an optimist.

More experienced people will confirm/correct what I have put but I would advise daily water changes for a start.

Well if anyone comes into buy a 10G, and it's not gonna be a hospital or quarentine, tell them to wait to buy fish until the tank is cycled. The fish are dieing because the ammonia and nitrite spikes are killing them. Some fish can't handle any presence off either of these and need a fully cycled tank. For her, tell her to stop adding new fish as it is just adding new strains on the filter and causing it to keep mini-cycling beyond what it's already cycling for. Yes, you can cycle with fish, but you need a hardy fish like danios. But i still wouldn't recommend it as you don't have to worry about fish at all when you just do a fishless cycle.

I would suggest doing a 25% water change everyday

Beaten to it.

Def agree with the water changes as this is a simple step to solve most problems, and if you are moving filter media and water, then it makes it so the fish did just go through a big water change....

But when the tank just started with no mature media, then it can be extremely hard on fish and I would encourage against it....but if it's too late, like in the case of your customer, then jsut tell them to do atleast a 25% water change every day and the problem should solve itself.

Is this why I never got any Ammonia or Nitrite spikes after changing the tanks over? For some reason I was expecting to see a bit of a spike. We got readings of 0 every day until the test kit got damaged, they were the strip ones and I am given to understand they are not very good. While we were waiting for the new kit to arrive (my LFS didn't have the ones I wanted) we upped the daily water change from 10% to a minimum of 25%. We tested again the other day and it read 0 on all three tests ans I was pressganged into buying more fish (a combination of a fish shop I was lookin round and the mrs) I have the space as its a 350 L tank but I wasn't quite happy with it. I got a bit of a Nitrite and Nitrate spike as mentioned above, hopefully the water changes are bringing it down as they seem to be.

Sorry for the hijack of the thread.

 

[ox5477]

When you add new fish, your bound to have a little spike as you are putting a larger strain on the bacteria and more need to grow to compensate.

But yes, if you move most of the water and the mature media, yes, it's like you just moved the tank. I'm suprised a minor spike didn't happen as it was prob a bigger tank, but if your doing daily water changes then It prob wouldn't have a chance to spike. Once you have your stocking set and your param's are good (NH4 = 0, NO2 = 0, NO3 <50 ppm) then you can start doing water changes only maybe once or twice a week (usually 25%).

EDIT: spelling and grammar

 

[CruX]

When you add new fish, your bound to have a little spike as you are putting a larger strain on the bacteria and more need to grow to compensate.

But yes, if you move most of the water and the mature media, yes, it's like you just moved the tank. I'm suprised a minor spike didn't happen as it was prob a bigger tank, but if your doing daily water changes then It prob wouldn't have a chance to spike. Once you have your stocking set and your param's are good (NH4 = 0, NO2 = 0, NO3 <50 ppm) then you can start doing water changes only maybe once or twice a week (usually 25%).

EDIT: spelling and grammar

There may well have been a spike, as I was using testing strips I never saw it. I moved from two 24X12X15'' tanks to a Juwel trigon 350. I didn't manage to get every drop out do I maybe got 120L from both tanks. So that was obviously a 230L short fall. In my old set ups I changed between 10% and 25% weekly and the fish did well, although I was not overstocked they became a bit sedentry, as if they were bored of their environment. Upon them entering the new 350L 'house' they all seemed to zip around having fun.

A quick question > Something I haven't managed to get my head round yet, obviously you want levels as described as above, but at what levels does the NH4 (I take it this is ammonia? My testkit says NH3/NH4 I think on the ammonia test) and the NO2 begin to harm the fish? I would have thought anything above 0ppm would start to harm the fish, but surely (unless I completely miss understand the cycle concept) you will always get a bit of a spike when entering new fish as the bacteria needs to build up to cope with it, that is the idea of entering fish slowly, before it settles back to 0.

 

[ox5477]

A quick question > Something I haven't managed to get my head round yet, obviously you want levels as described as above, but at what levels does the NH4 (I take it this is ammonia? My testkit says NH3/NH4 I think on the ammonia test) and the NO2 begin to harm the fish? I would have thought anything above 0ppm would start to harm the fish, but surely (unless I completely miss understand the cycle concept) you will always get a bit of a spike when entering new fish as the bacteria needs to build up to cope with it, that is the idea of entering fish slowly, before it settles back to 0.

They can handle trace amounts for a short period. but if they lived in a decent amount maybe 2 to 4 ppm for their whole life, it would severly shorten their life. But they can handle trace amount like 0.25 or 0.50 ppm for maybe a week at most

 

[CruX]

A quick question > Something I haven't managed to get my head round yet, obviously you want levels as described as above, but at what levels does the NH4 (I take it this is ammonia? My testkit says NH3/NH4 I think on the ammonia test) and the NO2 begin to harm the fish? I would have thought anything above 0ppm would start to harm the fish, but surely (unless I completely miss understand the cycle concept) you will always get a bit of a spike when entering new fish as the bacteria needs to build up to cope with it, that is the idea of entering fish slowly, before it settles back to 0.

They can handle trace amounts for a short period. but if they lived in a decent amount maybe 2 to 4 ppm for their whole life, it would severly shorten their life. But they can handle trace amount like 0.25 or 0.50 ppm for maybe a week at most

That makes me less worried as my readin of 0.25 has come down since a water change yesterday. I am gonna retest after the kids go to bed and change about 25% regardless of the readings. I need to add some sponges to the Juwel filter, I intend to go down to just the one filter soon as well, although I don't know when a good time to do this would be.