Line Breed Or Colony Breed?

[saphphx]

Hi there. I've been breeding corys for a while. I keep my Peppered, Bronze and Albino in mixed colonies all from different suppliers so unrelated. However, I have some very lovely panda cory, from different suppliers as well, originally I was going to raise them separate, then pick males from one supplier and breed those to a female of another supplier. Due to the delicate state of them, I keep them in species only tanks, where with my other colonies I keep them mixed with endlers and such and just remove eggs as I find them. Anyway, would it hurt the genetics to simply mix the suppliers and colony breed them, or keep them in smaller groups? I normally keep 20 to a colony, in lines I would keep them in groups of 6 to 12. I know they will be happier in larger groups, which is why I normally keep them in colonies. Should I carry on with the Pandas, or would it hurt the genetics if I pick out good looking ones and add them to the colony later? I am thinking to save the good ones and find a 5th supplier to cross them out with.

Thanks

 

[NEONCORY]

Hi Saphphx,

I don't know exactly what is your question or what do you mean.
But here is what I believe and try to implement. I have been raising many Panda frys from the eggs. I have been getting eggs from my Pandas regularly since last November. Although the group is consist of 4 adults and it happened to be 1 male and 3 females. The male is capable of fertlize all the eggs the females lay so far. Almost all the eggs hatch even without any fungacide.
Which is great that almost all the eggs hatch. However, I am planning to get more males. At first, I thought about growing their off-springs out and make them join in the group but now I am trying to get more Pandas from outside. Since I believe if I keep the in-line(closely related) breeders, that would weaken the gene of the species. I know there are many people do that to obtain the interesting charactristic like long fin or the right color. But you also know the many other species become degenarated by this such as Angels
And Pandas are already more delicate than other hardy Cories. It is not helpful to make the species weaker just because some people see certain charactristic of the fish and try to steablize that certain charactristic by breed the closely related fish.
It is just not natural.
I don't breed my fish for business but do as my hobby. And I usually pass my extra fish to other hobbist. And I would not want to pass some inferior fish although I do paticulaly not like to cull either. So I usually let the nature take care of it. I am not keep the fish with other predators of the fish. But I do not pumper the frys after they become free-swimming. What I mean is, I collect eggs and hatch them and feed them for a while like 2 weeks in seperate container. But once they become free-swimming and eating regular food, they would be reunite with the parents. I don't think adult would eat the frys after they become free-swimming since they will avoid whatever come near by. But what ever the reason if some of them are not strong enough, they will not make it. I know this is not most productive way to do but I don't have to cull either.

Anyway, the way I see it bigger the group of your fish, more competition among them. And most of the time if not all the time, only the strong superior male is allowed to fertrize the eggs. I have 2 Sterbai males always competing for the females. And almost always strong one form T-position with the female. So it is important to have multiple males in the group of Cories if you planning to produce strong frys. Either in-line or colony. But I also think that it is always good idea to introduce some new blood-line from outside.
I think that is why some breeder do so call "back cross". Get some original wild colored or wild stock and re-introduce to the selectively bred line. And try to strength the line of the fish.

I don't know any of this is relate to your question but I hope it made you to think about it.
I hope you make right choice and produce many strong fish. Good luck.

 

[saphphx]

-nods- I think what I will do is raise them as a colony, then split them off to trios for breeding. I have fish from 4 lines, so if I raise them as a colony it should be a good genetic diversity, and if I decide to raise on the fry for breeding I can always get new fish later on from different lines. I've been told of my 4 groups that all were from different tanks anyway, so I don't think there will be much chance of inbreeding. What do you think?

I guess to make it clearer:

Do I raise the different groups separate, then cross the males from group A with the females from group B

or

Do I raise them in a colony, and split them into smaller breeding groups then return them to the colony, keeping the fry seperate.

Hope its a bit clearer, I ramble sometimes. I do want the best possible fry, and what's best for my panda's in general.

Thanks.

 

[NEONCORY]

I would say keep as many fish in the same tank. And fish will take care of the rest. Like I mentioned about my Sterbais tank, there are 2 males but I know one stronger one fertlize eggs most of the time if not all the time. The other male try to place himself in front of the female but the stronger male does block or push the other male. And it get little rough at time, the female try to swim away from both of them. So I think it is neseccary to have some hiding place for female to go if she wants to. In a way, it is kind of sad that the weaker male can't mate but that is the way of the Nature. Survival of fittest, they have to ensure the strong off spring and hence the survival of the specie.
I really don't believe in the "trio or reverse trio" set up for the Corys. Unless you are tring to develope some kind of charactristic by way of selective breeding. I believe Corys don't have the concept of "pair" like some cichild like Angels or Rams. Male cory would breed with all the females but almost only the strongest male can fertlize the eggs. And strongest female produce most eggs and more often than other females. So most of the off springs are indeed the best combination among the habitats in that tank. So to me, it would be best to have as many as males possible within a reason for the competition of the gene but it should have several females also the males does not harass the one female all the time. Beside the Corys are happier in the bigger group.
In my Pandas case, my lone male have no problem fertlize all the eggs but I really should get more males for the competition. I thought about grew the off spring to join the group but I decide not to because I do not like to start inbreeding(mother-son, daugher-father.,etc.) and weaken the species.
So I am looking to bring in some new blood line from outside.
And about frys, I do collect eggs and hatch them and raise them for a while in seperate container. Since I did know that adult does eat the eggs occationary. I don't think they will eat the frys once they become free-swimming. If the frys are healthy enough, I'm sure they would move as soon as something big approach to them. So I just put the frys back with parents once they are 2~3 weeks old. I find this way, you have less worry about water quality to go bad as much as frys kept by themself since there are no overfeeding. The adults would eat whatever would be leftover. And also only the strong frys would grow. It is not like only the strongest survive in the Nature since there are no predators in the tank but strong enough frys. I just feed them well and do water change often. That would help raise frys as well as keep the adults in the breeding condition.
Beside Pandas does not lay eggs in 100's at once but more of 10~20 but more often.
Anyway, good luck with your Pandas. They are one of the prettiest Corys IMO. And surprisingly they are not shy actually they are pretty bold to me compare to some of the other corys.
Although there is always the exception but I find they do well in cooler highly oxygenated water. Also, they do need longer time to adjust the change of water parameter if you decide to change anything. I have the thread about how I keep them in this forum if you are interested.

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[saphphx]

Colony it is then easier on me as I would only have one panda tank as well Thanks for the info I have read your other threads, will probably re-read them though. My pandas are all still to young to be bothered with breeding, they take sooo long to mature

I keep them a bit cooler then the rest of my corys. At the moment I have some in a big tank though that I keep on the warm side for clown loaches, but soon the loaches will be moving on so I can lower the temp I aim for around 77 for pandas, normally 75 though

thanks so much for the help