Large Tank w/ Different Filtration

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10 Tanks

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Hello TFF. Located a 52 gallon tank at the local Goodwill. It's an odd size, but appears to be in good shape. Got some aquarium sealant and will reseal everything. Am planning a different filtration system called "Terraphyte". The idea isn't new, but not many have heard of it. There's no mechanical filter of any kind and uses a land plant to remove ammonia. This plant can live with its roots in water and needs nothing more than room lighting. The beneficial bacteria that grows will remove the ammonia at night when the plant rests. I'll send photos as I can.

10 Tanks, but may need to change the name to "11 Tanks"
 
There's no mechanical filter of any kind and uses a land plant to remove ammonia. This plant can live with its roots in water and needs nothing more than room lighting. The beneficial bacteria that grows will remove the ammonia at night when the plant rests.

Can you explain this more, as I do not think it is correct as stated. Aquatic plants in the tank water use ammonia/ammonium, not nitrate. Terrestrial plants use nitrate, not ammonia/ammonium. Where is the nitrate going to come from if the ammonia is not used by nitrifying bacteria?

The nitrifying bacteria will remove all ammonia they encounter, day and night, unless you have aquatic plants that remove it. But not terrestrial plants.
 
There will be no nitrite or nitrate. The roots of the immersed house plant will remove the ammonia before it is broken down into nitrite and nitrate. At night, the plant rests, but so do the fish. The fish will produce a little ammonia during the night, but it's very minimal and will be immediately taken in by the land plant as soon as the lights are turned on.

10 Tanks
 
There will be no nitrite or nitrate. The roots of the immersed house plant will remove the ammonia before it is broken down into nitrite and nitrate.

Sorry, it does not work like this. I asked what species of house plant, but it really does not matter. Terrestrial plants do not take up ammonia or nitrite, they take up nitrate. But in order for there to be nitrate in the aquarium, something has to take up the ammonia, and this something is the nitrifying bacteria, at least in order to produce nitrite which then becomes nitrate down the road. The ammonia produced by the fish and the breakdown of organic matter is taken up either by nitrifying bacteria or by aquatic plants--but not terrestrial plants.

And the ammonia produced at night will be grabbed either by the aquatic plants if there are any (this occurs 24/7, day and night) or the nitrifying bacteria if there are no aquatic plants present.

And filter or no filter does not matter, the nitrifying bacteria will colonize the substrate regardless.
 
Byron. I disagree, there are several land plants, terrestrial plants if you will, that use all three forms of nitrogen. Chinese Evergreen, Arrowheads, Pothos, Impatiens and Peace Lily come to mind. The Chinese Evergreen is a large plant with quite a large root system. If the plant roots are immersed in the tank and fed a steady dose of oxygen, the plant roots will take in the ammonia immediately. So, there won't be a very substantial colony of bacteria, because the ammonia has been removed. If there's no ammonia there will be little or no bacteria.

10 Tanks
 
Byron. I disagree, there are several land plants, terrestrial plants if you will, that use all three forms of nitrogen. Chinese Evergreen, Arrowheads, Pothos, Impatiens and Peace Lily come to mind. The Chinese Evergreen is a large plant with quite a large root system. If the plant roots are immersed in the tank and fed a steady dose of oxygen, the plant roots will take in the ammonia immediately. So, there won't be a very substantial colony of bacteria, because the ammonia has been removed. If there's no ammonia there will be little or no bacteria.

10 Tanks

Do you have sources for this? I'd like to see how they explain it.
 
Hello. Yes, I have a book by D Crosby Johnson that covers the tank setup. His particular version is on a 150 gallon tank. The book came out in 2008. Attach are photos of the Chinese Evergreen I've had growing in a 55 gallon tank for several months. It has grown to roughly 24 inches from a couple of stems I took from a mother plant. The other picture is the 52 gallon tank the plant will be moved to.

10 Tanks
 

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That does not answer my question. I do not doubt that terrestrial plants with roots in the aquarium water will remove nitrate, that is one common method to deal with high nitrate. You made the assertion that terrestrial plants actively remove ammonia/ammonium from the water, and so far as I know this is not true. As you have the book and I do not, does it state this assertion? If it does, presumably there would be references to the scientific data in support. If not, then it is just someone's theory without any evidence.

I did track down what I assume is the book (you did not give the title), it is Never Change Your Fish Water Again? published in 2008. This is another old wives tale.

The other assertion that such an uptake of ammonia/ammonium would not occur during the night is also highly questionable without scientific evidence. Aquatic plants take up ammonia/ammonium continually if it is present, day and night.
 
The name of the book is, "Never Change Your Fish Water Again". My understanding is that water plants are unable to use ammonia and must depend on bacteria to break this form of nitrogen down into nitrite then to nitrate. There's no bacteria that uses nitrate, so that's the reason for large and frequent water changes. Land plants are different in that they are able to draw ammonia directly into the plant through the roots as soon as the ammonia is produced. So, in such a system, there is very little bacteria, because there is little or no ammonia for the bacteria to feed on.

10 Tanks
 
I agree with Byron - aquatic plants feed on ammonia most efficiently and terrestrial or land plants feed on nitrate (or any form of nitrogen) most efficiently so will work to remove this from the water column.

This is why planted tanks can run at 0 nitrate but if your source water has nitrates in the plants wont deal with it - this is because the aquatic plants are using the ammonia, preventing the bacteria from processing it to nitrate. But if you have nitrate in your source water it will always just sit there unless you have terrestrial plants (or use chemicals or anoxic bacteria).

I think terrestrial plants will feed on ammonia due to the nitrogen in ammonia but its not going to be an efficient way of processing it. You would be better off growing very fast growing stem plants in the aquarium, anything with the names weed or wort in them would be a good option but you would need to have quite a lightly stocked tank.
 
Now we're getting somewhere. There are a couple of serious misunderstandings in post #9 that I can correct with plenty of scientific data.

My understanding is that water plants are unable to use ammonia and must depend on bacteria to break this form of nitrogen down into nitrite then to nitrate.

This is reversed. Aquatic plants use ammonia/ammonium as their source of nitrogen (Walstad, 2003; Porath & Pollock, 1982). They remove this from the water via their leaves rather than the roots (Walstad, 2003; Thursby & Harlin, 1982; Nichols & Keeney, 1976). Only when ammonia/ammonium becomes insufficient in balance with the other required nutrients and light will they then turn to nitrate. They do this because they must use considerable energy to change the nitrate back into ammonium in order to then use it. And plants will not waste energy like this unless literally forced into it. There is some evidence that they would after ammonia/ammonium take up nitrite before nitrate, but this has not been well studied (Walstad, 2003). But it is absolutely clear from numerous studies that only when ammonium is unavailable will aquatic plants take up nitrates.

Aquatic plants also take up ammonium considerably faster than they can take up nitrates. A study of Pistia stratiotes (floating Water Lettuce) found that the turnover time for taking up ammonium was 4 hours, while that for nitrate was 20 hours (Nelson et al, 1980). Studies with duckweed determined that in the presnce of ammonium, nitrate uptake rapidly ceased completely; once the ammonkium was used up, it took two days before the duckweed began taking up nitrate (Beck & Feller, 1991; Ingemarsson et al, 1984; Ullrich et al, 1984).

There's no bacteria that uses nitrate, so that's the reason for large and frequent water changes.

There are denitrifying bacteria that use nitrate. These heterotrophic bacteria, of which there are several species, utilize nitrate by consuming the oxygen within nitrate and releasing nitrogen gas. They do not require free oxygen in the water so they are facultative anaerobes, and generally occur in what we term “dead spots,” which occur when water movement is stopped and thus no oxygen is available. These are the good guys among heterotrophs, since de-nitrification is important in a healthy aquarium. And they will naturally occur in the lower level of the substrate. In most aquaria the area available for these bacteria is limited, and water changes will remove the nitrates.

In very general terms, aerobic nitrification takes place in the top 1-2 inches of the substrate; anaerobic de-nitrification takes place approximately 2-4 inches down, and anaerobic bacteria producing hydrogen sulfide occurs in substrates deeper than 3-4 inches. In all three cases, it will be deeper in coarse substrates (like pea gravel) and more shallow in finer substrates such as sand. These generalities will also vary with the presence of live plant roots and substrate “diggers” such as snails and worms, since these factors result in more oxygen being made available in the substrate, reducing anaerobic bacteria activity. An oxygen level in the substrate of as little as 1 ppm promotes nitrogen reduction rather than sulfur reduction (hydrogen sulfide).

Land plants are different in that they are able to draw ammonia directly into the plant through the roots as soon as the ammonia is produced.

Without references to accepted scientific data, this is something we should not accept. Terrestrial plants uptake nitrate. That is why nitrate is present in all fertilizers for land plants. I have never seen anything that counters this.
 
Okay. Well, I have the book and this system really seems good to me. Since I have the tank and plant, I'm going to give this system a try. I've had similar tanks in the past, but they've been much smaller. My plan is to set up the system and introduce some small Goldfish, possibly Comets and see how they do. In the beginning, I'm going to use the plant as the filter and keep the water clean through large, regular water changes. This will remove any waste material that may build up in the beginning that the plant isn't able to use. This plant may be too small and I may need to make some adjustments. We'll see.

10 Tanks
 
First, the reason aquatic plants use nitrate in tanks with fish is very simple. You cannot add ammonia to a tank with fish in it. So the only ammonia available is what is created in the tank. And while this is a constant process, it is also ay a very low rate. In an established tank there will never eb an ammonia reading because the bacteria and plants use it as fast as it is creatd 24/7. Next, if a tank does not procuce enough ammonia/ammonium to support the plant load, we have to add ferts. Since we cannot add ammonia, that leaves nitrate.

Lets start with some science here. In water ammonia (NH3) turns mostly into ammonium. The lower the pH and the cooler the water, the more of the Total Ammonia (TA), NH3 + NH4, in a tank will be in the form of ammonium. At about 6.0 pH it is virtually all ammonium. However, the science also shows us that the bacteria are able to adapt to this. But they process ammonium much (NH4) less efficiently than than ammonia (NH3).

Next, there is no such thing as a planted tank with 0 nitrifying bacteria in it. On the other hand, there are plenty of tanks filled with bacteria and no plants at all.

So, it is not possible to have only plants doing the ammonia processing as 10 tanks mistakenly has stated. Not only do I have many bookmarks on the scientific studies relating to FW aquariums and all connected with them. But I also have over 25 papers on aquaitic plant feeding.

Next, if you have any bacteria in a tank, you also have some small amount of denitrifying bacteria in the same biofilms as the nitrifyers. If you have the proper substrate or massive bio-media, you will have more of the denitrifiers. But unless one has the latter situation, the amount of denitrification is minimal. In my tanks with massive Hamburg Mattenfilters I never have nitrates and none of these tanks has live plants. Because there are no lights on my pleco breeding and grow tanks, There is almost no algae either. All there tanks get is minimal ambient light most of the time. There is some daylight that comes into the room and I do use lights when I clean the tanks.

Consider this as a start:

Jampeetong, Arunothai & Brix, Hans. (2009). Nitrogen nutrition of Salvinia natans: Effects of inorganic nitrogen form on growth, morphology, nitrate reductase activity and uptake kinetics of ammonium and nitrate. Aquatic Botany. 90. 67-73. 10.1016/j.aquabot.2008.06.005.

Abstract​

In this study we assessed the growth, morphological responses, and N uptake kinetics of Salvinia natans when supplied with nitrogen as NO3−, NH4+, or both at equimolar concentrations (500 μM). Plants supplied with only NO3− had lower growth rates (0.17 ± 0.01 g g−1 d−1), shorter roots, smaller leaves with less chlorophyll than plants supplied with NH4+ alone or in combination with NO3− (RGR = 0.28 ± 0.01 g g−1 d−1). Ammonium was the preferred form of N taken up. The maximal rate of NH4+ uptake (Vmax) was 6–14 times higher than the maximal uptake rate of NO3− and the minimum concentration for uptake (Cmin) was lower for NH4+ than for NO3−. Plants supplied with NO3− had elevated nitrate reductase activity (NRA) particularly in the roots showing that NO3− was primarily reduced in the roots, but NRA levels were generally low (<4 μmol NO2− g−1 DW h−1). Under natural growth conditions NH4+ is probably the main N source for S. natans, but plants probably also exploit NO3− when NH4+ concentrations are low. This is suggested based on the observation that the plants maintain high NRA in the roots at relatively high NH4+ levels in the water, even though the uptake capacity for NO3− is reduced under these conditions.
from ammonium and nitrate

or


Stephen G. Nelson, Barry D. Smith, Bruce R. Best,
Kinetics of nitrate and ammonium uptake by the tropical freshwater macrophyte Pistia stratiotes L.,
Aquaculture, Volume 24, 1981, Pages 11-19,
ISSN 0044-8486,

Abstract​

In this study we assessed the growth, morphological responses, and N uptake kinetics of Salvinia natans when supplied with nitrogen as NO3−, NH4+, or both at equimolar concentrations (500 μM). Plants supplied with only NO3− had lower growth rates (0.17 ± 0.01 g g−1 d−1), shorter roots, smaller leaves with less chlorophyll than plants supplied with NH4+ alone or in combination with NO3− (RGR = 0.28 ± 0.01 g g−1 d−1). Ammonium was the preferred form of N taken up. The maximal rate of NH4+ uptake (Vmax) was 6–14 times higher than the maximal uptake rate of NO3− and the minimum concentration for uptake (Cmin) was lower for NH4+ than for NO3−. Plants supplied with NO3− had elevated nitrate reductase activity (NRA) particularly in the roots showing that NO3− was primarily reduced in the roots, but NRA levels were generally low (<4 μmol NO2− g−1 DW h−1). Under natural growth conditions NH4+ is probably the main N source for S. natans, but plants probably also exploit NO3− when NH4+ concentrations are low. This is suggested based on the observation that the plants maintain high NRA in the roots at relatively high NH4+ levels in the water, even though the uptake capacity for NO3− is reduced under these conditions.

I can keep on posting studies if folks want, but the facts do not change.

edited to change the word nitrogen o nitrate in the first sentence and typos.
 
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Loads of great info in this thread.

Just wanted to add that an other thing to consider is that it will take about 10-12 weeks for a terrestrial plant to adapt to growing in water so if you are transferring a plant grown in soil to water you might need to factor this in as well. But I'd strongly recommend testing your water when the fish are in as you are going to get ammonia readings. Maybe get one of those stick on disks so its constantly monitoring for you?

Also worth saying we all want to be wrong about this and I'll gladly eat my hat if needs be but I'm pretty sure you are going to be adding fish into a tank that can't control the ammonia levels. Adding some fast growing aquatic plants and the means to make them grow will achieve this though.

Wills
 

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