I’m a bit upset

[Fishfinder1973]

I thought something was off when my wee zebra pleco came out of hiding a couple of days ago.He came right up to the front glass,which was very unusual and I noticed he was quite thin.
Yesterday morning I saw him again in full view and just by looking at him I could see he was in a bad way.I put my hand in and picked him up and when I let him go he kicked a couple of times and I could see he was disabled.
Anyway my wee pleco passed away last night,I’m gutted.
There’s only two fish in the tank that could have done the damage,the snowball pleco or the yo-yo loach.my moneys on the yo-yo loach cause he has a powerful mouth on him that when clicks I can hear it and feel it through the tank and he gets into every small crevice and digs right in.
Verdict: fed up

 

[anewbie]

Well.... single yoyo is always trouble - they really need a group of 8ish and even then there is no guarantees. zebra loaches are much more passive though they should still be kept in a group of 6+; but at least a solo zebra is not likely to cause problems.

 

[Fishfinder1973]

Well.... single yoyo is always trouble - they really need a group of 8ish and even then there is no guarantees. zebra loaches are much more passive though they should still be kept in a group of 6+; but at least a solo zebra is not likely to cause problems.

The zebra pleco lived with the loach for over a year with no problems,but I added a couple more yoyos a month ago.wether that’s made him more territorial I can’t be sure,but it was almost certainly an attack on him because his tail was shredded and his body bent a funny way when he tried to swim,he was disabled.

 

[anewbie]

To be honest I would bet on the snowball pleco before the yoyo. yoyo do tend to be moody but i doubt they would have shredded his tail; however some pleco are extremely territorial including the snowball. This would be esp so if the snowball was young when purchased and had reached maturity over the past year.
fishkeepingworld.com/snowball-pleco/
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I would have expected the yoyo to have been a bit of a harasser trying to get the zebra to join the group. I have 7 yoyo in my tank along iwth a number of pleco. Another possibility is if you have anything mechanical in your tank that generate current - the zebra might have been attracted by the current.
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Having said that yoyo are more prone to be boisterous when kept solo or in small groups.

 

[itiwhetu]

What are the parameters of your tank please, these are rather delicate fish. And require a precise set up to do well long term.

 

[Fishfinder1973]

What are the parameters of your tank please, these are rather delicate fish. And require a precise set up to do well long term.

Thanks for asking,but the parameters are all fine.zero ammonia and nitrite,soft water,ph of 7,10-2 nitrate and 26 degrees.He was attacked by another fish.He was the show fish of my tank so it feels a bit empty now.
It’s a learning curve,but it’s a nasty side of a learning curve that I didn’t need.
I won’t be replacing him.

 

[Tez_20]

yo-yo loach

I would say the same as they get quite big and need some room.

 

[Byron]

I will make some general observations to explain some of what went on here, so others can learn and avoid similar issues.

All loaches, especially the botine species (those in the genus Botia and similar close relatives) are highly social fish. Once a group of individuals is placed in an aquarium, an hierarchy forms; there will be an alpha who will frankly control things; fish who do not follow usually don't last long. This relates to fish within the species, just to be clear. The group must have at least five (sometimes four will work, but certainly not less, and never one as this is just not humane) and they must be introduced together (at the same time), and should be relatively the same age/size. The species selected should be the only loach species in the tank. Sometimes two different species can work, but it is only with certain species. This applies to all "loach" species.

The plecos are very different. But males of all loricariids are territorial, to very variable degrees, and care must be taken when selecting more than one for any tank. Normally one would not expect aggression between a pleco and other substrate level fish like a group of loaches, but individual fish and different species can be exceptions.

The problem here was almost certainly the lone loach. The social need for a group of conspecifics in part of the genetic makeup of these fish, and severe stress usually results if they are not placed in an environment they "expect." Fish have few options when under such stress, and the usual reaction is increased aggression, out of sheer frustration. The stress has a detrimental effect on the metabolism and functioning of the physiology of the fish, and there is no cure, only prevention initially by researching the needs and ensuring they are met.

 

[Tez_20]

I will make some general observations to explain some of what went on here, so others can learn and avoid similar issues.

Byron my son in law as 4 in a 100 litre tank not big enough and i've told him and he as cories at breeding age and he said the loaches stop them breeding...what can you say to someone who doesn't listen

 

[anewbie]

I will make some general observations to explain some of what went on here, so others can learn and avoid similar issues.

All loaches, especially the botine species (those in the genus Botia and similar close relatives) are highly social fish. Once a group of individuals is placed in an aquarium, an hierarchy forms; there will be an alpha who will frankly control things; fish who do not follow usually don't last long. This relates to fish within the species, just to be clear. The group must have at least five (sometimes four will work, but certainly not less, and never one as this is just not humane) and they must be introduced together (at the same time), and should be relatively the same age/size. The species selected should be the only loach species in the tank. Sometimes two different species can work, but it is only with certain species. This applies to all "loach" species.

The plecos are very different. But males of all loricariids are territorial, to very variable degrees, and care must be taken when selecting more than one for any tank. Normally one would not expect aggression between a pleco and other substrate level fish like a group of loaches, but individual fish and different species can be exceptions.

The problem here was almost certainly the lone loach. The social need for a group of conspecifics in part of the genetic makeup of these fish, and severe stress usually results if they are not placed in an environment they "expect." Fish have few options when under such stress, and the usual reaction is increased aggression, out of sheer frustration. The stress has a detrimental effect on the metabolism and functioning of the physiology of the fish, and there is no cure, only prevention initially by researching the needs and ensuring they are met.

I keep yoyo (6), zebra (5) and clown loaches (5) together in a 120 and they seem to do well ok (this is an over population and they will get a larger tank soon). I find the zebra to be extremely docile; and the yoyo a bit noiser. The clown are now about 2 years old and the largest is a rather bulky 6 inches. I recently added 2 more clowns (now 7); that are quite small and they mostly seem to avoid the larger ones (though my reading is the clown is the exception to the rules and will readily accept small ones into their group). Frequently all the loaches will glass surf together and it is rather amusing watching the much smaller zebra loaches (and 2 tiny clowns) swim among the much larger clown loaches. The tank is not as large as i would like and they will be moving into a 450 in about 10 months. I'm still a bit worry since the 450 is only 24 inches high (max height i can support) and the clowns would actually prefer a taller tank for their glass surfing. Long term i plan to phase out the yoyo as they are most problematic and increase the zebra school to 15. They do seem to leave the sterbai alone and I recently added some additional 1/2 inch sterbai and a month later they are still doing well (i have some adults but some have this mucus that is not disimilar to fungus and will eventually die - they have had it for a 18 months but it is getting worse and i've not foudn a way to treat it; not all of them i believe it was one batch i purchased that all developed it as they had it in 2 different tanks). Anyway i digress the main point i wanted to make is the yoyo zebra and clown seem to co-exist fairly well though i would trust the yoyo the least. I find it hard to believe the zebra loach even in fewer numbers would be particularly problematic. My two largest clown loaches do seem to fight a bit but they do at least leave the bn alone (there is contention for a cave between the clown and bn - and the bn spends all day hitting the clown with his tail until he leaves).

 

[Fishfinder1973]

All the mistakes I’ve made,I will remember.
The mistake I made that led to the pleco death was avoidable,in other words my own stupid fault.Things were going well until I decided to change the scape.I had so much cover in the tank and places for the fish to hide,which ultimately led to my worries.The original scape was a huge piece of bog wood interlaced with layered slate.Fish began hiding under the bog wood and in the slate,the zebra plecostomus and yo-yo loach preferred the slate whilst the corys and sultan plecostomus preferred the bog wood,and this piece of bog wood was becoming a problem.
It’s one thing for fish to disappear for a few days or even a week,but I had corys that vanished,simple as that,then the sultan plecostomus.
After weeks of them not showing themselves,probably months,I could only believe they were dead and lying under the bog wood,I had to know.
I had to first deconstruct the layered slate(mistake one)before I removed the bog wood( mistake two).
There was a ton of debris came unsettled with its removal,but in among the decay were the corys and sultan plecostomus,alive and well.I was over the moon and most of my fish were in view for a change.There were 3 sterbai corydoras instead of 2,there were 4 black corydoras instead of 2,and both plecostomus.
Instead of cleaning the tank up and placing back the bog wood and slate,I did the wrong thing by replacing just some of the slate,and I didn’t layer it.
To be able to view the fish was great for a change,but the fish weren’t happy and within hours,were showing signs of stress.I always had the odd fish occasionally flashing against the gravel,now it was almost every fish apart from the plecostomus,and it was constant.The water had become cloudy too and in the few days it took to clear,the fish had ich,the five banded barbs particularly bad.
I tried meds and in the process killed the sultan,things ran away from me quickly.I knew about the heat treatment,but I wasn’t sure how the corydoras would handle it.Luckily Colin-t assured they would be fine and he was correct of course and I eventually got the ich under control.The sultan plecostomus was a bad loss,but fortunately it was one fish out of ninety odd.
Things settled down.I replaced the sultan pleco and added a snowball pleco,as there was still plenty of plants,nooks and crannies for them to take cover in.The zebra pleco hid under a bushy plant,the snowball was in view,usually attached to a bit of driftwood and the sultan on the back glass behind a plant.
The yoyo loach was 15 to 20 times bigger than the zebra pleco,bringing me to the conclusion that he simply got in the way of the yoyo loach during nocturnal activities,he didn’t have the protection the slate had offered.
I removed the bog wood and slate for the right reason,concern for the “vanished”,but I left it out for the wrong reason,I could see the fish,It was selfish of me.
From then on,no more sudden changes,I remember my mistakes.

 

[Tez_20]

.I was over the moon and most of my fish were in view for a change.There were 3 sterbai corydoras instead of 2,there were 4 black corydoras instead of 2,and both plecostomus.

I am pleased you found your corys with extra it's a nice bonus when you see that

 

[Byron]

@Fishfinder1973, what you detail in post #11 is fine, but it is not the real problem that caused the loss. What I tried to explain in my previous post was the reason the pleco is dead. I'd be happy to explain things more if asked.