Howdy fellow aquarists!

[R2D2808]

So nice to see a very informative place to diagnose some of my tank issues, sometimes the internet can be fickle but this might be my answer!

That being said, I have come here with an issue, as most do unfortunately. If anyone has any advice on why my KH and pH are rapidly dropping (12-18 hours from 4-1 KH and 7.6-5.6 pH) I love to hear it. I've removed all my driftwood and have gotten my NH4 issues balanced (I think) but I know it's a complex problem and have tested just about every variable and in my experience, well I just haven't seen this happen before. I am looking into buffering agents, but am trying to figure out the root cause and get my 10gal tank back to normal! Thanks!

 

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

Greetings.
Please hold fire on adding any chemicals to the tank, until you know for certain what is causing the issue.
It would help to know your tank details, (history, stocking, contents, etc), and your water chemistry.

Who would've thought that when you started sticking fish in a glass box, you'd need all this biochemistry?

 

[R2D2808]

Greetings.
Please hold fire on adding any chemicals to the tank, until you know for certain what is causing the issue.
It would help to know your tank details, (history, stocking, contents, etc), and your water chemistry.

Who would've thought that when you started sticking fish in a glass box, you'd need all this biochemistry?

Thanks for the reply!
Was kinda waiting for type of response I got before offloading all the gory details, cause this one's a doozy... baffling just about everyone I've asked for advice so far...
So, it's a 10 gal freshwater tank that had been established for about a year or so when I crashed the biofilter by taking out a large decoration (which had a BBA infestation) and changing all the filer media at once. Charcoal cartridge, sponge and did a water change. Ever since I've been struggling with NH4 and trying to get the tank cycled again. What I've learned is that I should also have been monitoring pH. When I finally started testing pH (after 7 months of head scratching) it was very low ~ 5.5-6. Cue me trying to fix the pH and spiking the ammonia of course...
As of Monday, when I went to the LFS for advice, I had them do a spectrometer test to make sure my API kit wasn't flawed and the H2O tested 7.4 pH, 4 KH and a whopping 3.2ppm NH4. I immediately did a 50% water change and tested again 12 hours later. The pH was 6.8 and NH4 was at .5ppm. I did another 30% change. Please bear in mind I am dosing with Prime and Seed with every water change. 8 hours later I tested again and the pH was <6 and the KH was 1, while the NH4 was at .25. I added a teaspoon of baking soda as a quick fix to raise the pH and KH to 7.6 and 7 respectively.
Testing this morning said the ammonia was holding steady, but the pH had dropped to 7 and the KH to 5. Tap water is all normal at 7.4, 5 and zero for pH, KH and NH4. I tested my established 3 gal as a control and everything is perfect across the board.
I currently have 2 honey gouramis, 2 plain corys and 3 scissortail rasporas, but that is after losing some stock throughout this process. My feeding schedule is an 1/8th teaspoon every two days. I also have four larger live plants and some moneywort in the tank as well which I use Flourish tabs to keep fed.
Hope this is enough for a start, like I said, I have all the staff at my LFS grasping at straws at the moment, but the KH data is new, so we'll see what they say when I go back on Monday. Thier current theory is my gravel may be leeching NH4...

Thanks for any advice and help you can muster!
Richard

 

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

When you have a complex situation, it often helps if you can remove things to simplify;

• You want to conduct water changes to bring the ammonia done to zero. Match the temperature as close to tank temp as possible, but it doesn't have to be exact.
• Only use one water conditioner...Prime would be the one to keep for now. Save Seed bacteria for later.
• Lose the charcoal from the filter.
• I'd stop trying to alter the pH chemically and stick to just water changes.
• Don't add any Flourish fertiliser tabs.
• Add some floating plants. These should absorb some ammonia and compounds.
• More live plants generally can only improve things. Just make sure that there are no dead plants/leaves in there.

I think it unlikely that your gravel's producing NH4, unless it's riddled with dead and decaying organic matter.

 

[R2D2808]

When you have a complex situation, it often helps if you can remove things to simplify;

• You want to conduct water changes to bring the ammonia done to zero. Match the temperature as close to tank temp as possible, but it doesn't have to be exact.
• Only use one water conditioner...Prime would be the one to keep for now. Save Seed bacteria for later.
• Lose the charcoal from the filter.
• I'd stop trying to alter the pH chemically and stick to just water changes.
• Don't add any Flourish fertiliser tabs.
• Add some floating plants. These should absorb some ammonia and compounds.
• More live plants generally can only improve things. Just make sure that there are no dead plants/leaves in there.

I think it unlikely that your gravel's producing NH4, unless it's riddled with dead and decaying organic matter.

I think one of my main problems is that I have been fighting a battle without all the info. At first, the assumption was I was just trying to restart the cycle, so I was told not to do any water changes, which may have made the pH/KH situation worse, I think? But, if I'm getting this right, fresh water will keep the KH and pH stable, which will let the bacteria do it's thing? I've been wanting to prune and replace some plants so I'm definitely happy about this news. I'll also vacuum the gravel just to make sure there isn't any detritus going on.
And when you say lose the filter, do you mean the normal filter cartridge that is in my HOB? That's the only media I have besides a small sponge in front of that cartridge.
Thanks again!

 

[Myraan]

If you are having ammonia problems in an acidic tank, I would not tempt fate by raising the kH to try and increase the pH. If you are successful you have simply managed to make the ammonia more toxic.

If you don't already have plants get some. If you do not want or like plants stick to floating ones, the shade will make the fish comfortable and make the decorations look nice.

I think all you need to do is lots of water changing and hope for the best; any dangerous reduction in minerals required should be solved by the regular addition of fresh water yes, as long as your tap water isn't basically distilled or RO for some reason.

 

[Myraan]

If the filter cartridge is chemical media it will need to be replaced as often as they tell you, but as that is dumping some of the bacteria, most people will prefer to replace that with a piece of extra sponge or something.

I think the easiest thing to do in a naturally acidic tank is forget bacteria and rely on water changing to remove anything that plants are not. Eventually you will be able to reduce water changes to a weekly routine that is mainly to replenish minerals and dilute pathogens and any nitrates you may or may not get.

 

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

I think one of my main problems is that I have been fighting a battle without all the info. At first, the assumption was I was just trying to restart the cycle, so I was told not to do any water changes, which may have made the pH/KH situation worse, I think? But, if I'm getting this right, fresh water will keep the KH and pH stable, which will let the bacteria do it's thing? I've been wanting to prune and replace some plants so I'm definitely happy about this news. I'll also vacuum the gravel just to make sure there isn't any detritus going on.
And when you say lose the filter, do you mean the normal filter cartridge that is in my HOB? That's the only media I have besides a small sponge in front of that cartridge.
Thanks again!

Understood.
Whoever told you not to do water changes was wrong. The beneficial bacteria do not live in the water, it lives on every available surface.
Your fish do live in the water and you need to keep them as safe as possible, so reducing the ammonia present by dilution via water changes is the way to go.
When researching your cycling method, you're looking at the fish-in method.

The 'lose the filter' was a reference to the carbon element. You don't need it and it may complicate things.

 

[R2D2808]

Understood.
Whoever told you not to do water changes was wrong. The beneficial bacteria do not live in the water, it lives on every available surface.
Your fish do live in the water and you need to keep them as safe as possible, so reducing the ammonia present by dilution via water changes is the way to go.
When researching your cycling method, you're looking at the fish-in method.

The 'lose the filter' was a reference to the carbon element. You don't need it and it may complicate things.

This goes with my instincts and what I have read and learned over the years. In fact, what lead me to this predicament I'm in now is doing just that. I'm not saying it's wrong, because it's what I believe is correct as well, but I did it for months! The initial crash happened in February and I did once, sometimes twice daily water changes trying to keep NH4 at zero until May when ai finally consulted my fish store. That's when they suggested longer (2 weeks or so) breaks between water changes. And every since it has been one tweek after another.

 

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

This goes with my instincts and what I have read and learned over the years. In fact, what lead me to this predicament I'm in now is doing just that. I'm not saying it's wrong, because it's what I believe is correct as well, but I did it for months! The initial crash happened in February and I did once, sometimes twice daily water changes trying to keep NH4 at zero until May when ai finally consulted my fish store. That's when they suggested longer (2 weeks or so) breaks between water changes. And every since it has been one tweek after another.

With ammonia in the water, the fish are more stressed, (it burns their skin and gills) and, as a consequence, they produce more ammonia through their waste.
Sadly, many believe that the nice people in the shop who are selling them all of the kit, fish and medicines, pills, potions and lotions, are doing so with animal welfare in mind, along with your enjoyment of what is supposed to be a relaxing hobby.
Putting aside the cynical view that they are there simply to exploit the unwary, many really haven't got a clue as to what they're talking about.

 

[R2D2808]

With ammonia in the water, the fish are more stressed, (it burns their skin and gills) and, as a consequence, they produce more ammonia through their waste.
Sadly, many believe that the nice people in the shop who are selling them all of the kit, fish and medicines, pills, potions and lotions, are doing so with animal welfare in mind, along with your enjoyment of what is supposed to be a relaxing hobby.
Putting aside the cynical view that they are there simply to exploit the unwary, many really haven't got a clue as to what they're talking about.

Gotcha, and couldn't agree more. My question though was at what point is just doing H2O changes not enough? Like I said, I changed the water daily, if not more often, for months and the nitrification process still wasn't happening. Granted, I had more stock than I do now and I've added more more material for the bacteria to grow on, and I'm hip to keeping an eye on pH/kH but is it normal to be doing 30% water changes daily for months?

 

[Myraan]

Putting aside the cynical view that they are there simply to exploit the unwary, many really haven't got a clue as to what they're talking about.

My strategy is to never ask advice but to be ready to listen with discernment if they offer advice anyway starting with "this is what I found with my own fish...." just in case they mention something I might want to research into.

 

[Myraan]

Gotcha, and couldn't agree more. My question though was at what point is just doing H2O changes not enough? Like I said, I changed the water daily, if not more often, for months and the nitrification process still wasn't happening. Granted, I had more stock than I do now and I've added more more material for the bacteria to grow on, and I'm hip to keeping an eye on pH/kH but is it normal to be doing 30% water changes daily for months?

Even if you ignore fish welfare this one advert for the concept of fishless cycling.

 

[R2D2808]

Even if you ignore fish welfare this one advert for the concept of fishless cycling.

I did cycle my tank without fish. This is an established tank that I crashed by removing too much bacteria at once and I'm trying to restart the cycle while keeping my buddies as stress free as possible.

 

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

Gotcha, and couldn't agree more. My question though was at what point is just doing H2O changes not enough? Like I said, I changed the water daily, if not more often, for months and the nitrification process still wasn't happening. Granted, I had more stock than I do now and I've added more more material for the bacteria to grow on, and I'm hip to keeping an eye on pH/kH but is it normal to be doing 30% water changes daily for months?

A fishless cycle can take 4 weeks.
A planted cycle would take considerably less.
A fish-in cycle might take about the same time, provided there was no care for the poor fish.
Doing as carefully as you are, it'll take time.

"I also have four larger live plants and some moneywort in the tank as well". This would be nowhere near enough for a proper planted cycle, but if you were to add more live plants, the process of cycling should be a little quicker.
Don't feed the plants though...if you're providing them with all the nourishment they need, they wouldn't be so greedy for tank ammonia and suchlike.