Horrible Black Stuff In Tank. Algae?

[waterdrop]

Wait! I missed that! Are -all- the plants artificial? WD

 

[greengoddess]

Wait! I missed that! Are -all- the plants artificial? WD

Hi WD,

No, I have one small real plant (some sort of Java Fern). It looks a little scraggy to be honest so I am not adverse to removing it if necessary. Why do you ask? I assume this is significant knowing your expert knowledge.

 

[waterdrop]

Its just that its so very hard to balance a tank with very few plants (with zero plants you can just operate the light manually when people are there to view and keep it mostly turned off to help keep away the algae.)

I'm going to attempt a simplistic (for my own sake) explanation of what I mean by balance. (the things involved are by no means linear and Dave Spencer and other planted people may be able to simply change what I'm saying or add significant refinements but here it goes

In my simplisitic "balanced" tank, there will be some number X of healthy plants. The force that drives the speed of their growth is light. The light is supplied in 4 hour blocks (thus, 4, 8, 12 or 16 are the only choices) bounded by the fact that it takes higher order plants 4 hours minimum to operate their photosynthesis machine to produce internal sugars to a useful level and they also need 8 hours of black/sleep in my opinion because of day/night cycle machinery in their signaling mechanisms. All light helps algae, but any given block of light less than 4 hours helps algae without helping higher plants.

Both plants and algae need about 17 nutrient elements. When any one element runs out, things go wrong and go wrong to a greater degree for a given plant species than for algae (different algae species can take advantage of differing nutrient conditions I believe.) The most key element is carbon (thus all the discussion of CO2, the main carbon delivery mechanism) and unless it is artificially supplied to the tank, it will be impossible for it not to run out if the lights are on for 16 or 12 hours and most likely still true for an 8 hour stretch IF we also take in to account the amount of growing plant mass.

OK, so we've got a certain plant mass, balanced with just the right amount of dosed nutrients and -just- the right amount of light such that the plants grow but do not run out of any one of their nutrients, including the difficult carbon one... BUT we've magically dosed -just- the right ratio of every nutrient for the given amount of light and plant mass... so there are no nutrients left over to feed the algae! This is our hypothetical perfectly balanced plant tank.

NOW, lets add a little too much light. What happens? First, the plants grow faster and quickly run out of some nutrient, typically carbon, and we might see the nice green absent from the tips of their leaves at first, then some plants or plant parts may eventually die. Second, the greater light will push more algae spores to trigger, whereever tiny traces of ammonia are present (and they always are) and algae will get a small advantage.

NEXT, lets leave the light optimal but supply too few nutrients. What happens? Well, as said above, the higher order plants in some way may begin to deteriorate and as they do, the ever-present heterotrophic bacteria will right away begin to munch on the dead plant material and produce a little more ammonia. What happens with any little extra bit of ammonia? It encourages more algae (because Light + Ammonia triggers algae spores and encourages algae!)

Does that paint the picture? Perfect balance is only ever a fleeting moment, scientifically, but in the practical world we can learn to run a planted tank such that it behaves in a balanced way. We do this by artificially supplying nutrients in the right amounts and controlling our light force as the overall push on the system and we use water changes and perhaps CO2 control as our remover of excess nutrients in conjunction with our nutrient dosing. Below a certain level, fewer plants makes this balance harder to do. Lots of different plant species can also add its own complexity but that's a different story.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Dave Spencer]

OK, so we've got a certain plant mass, balanced with just the right amount of dosed nutrients and -just- the right amount of light such that the plants grow but do not run out of any one of their nutrients, including the difficult carbon one... BUT we've magically dosed -just- the right ratio of every nutrient for the given amount of light and plant mass... so there are no nutrients left over to feed the algae! This is our hypothetical perfectly balanced plant tank.

~~waterdrop~~

Planted tanks are not a balancing act. All we need to do is supply all requirements, wih the exception of light, in excess. Otherwise, how would an EI tank work? Algae does not feed off excess nutrients, it feeds off whatever is there, including extremely low fert situations where plants will die. Plants and algae are no more in competition for nutrients than elephants and the ants around their feet. Plants do not starve algae, as is often implied. My tanks run with excess ferts 24/7, but the algae does not take advantage due to plant health/lack of bloom triggers.

Just give your plants all that they need in excess, and forget any kind of balancing act. a read of the EI sticky in the planted section explains this well. for more detail, try the Barr report.

Dave.

 

[waterdrop]

OK, so we've got a certain plant mass, balanced with just the right amount of dosed nutrients and -just- the right amount of light such that the plants grow but do not run out of any one of their nutrients, including the difficult carbon one... BUT we've magically dosed -just- the right ratio of every nutrient for the given amount of light and plant mass... so there are no nutrients left over to feed the algae! This is our hypothetical perfectly balanced plant tank.

~~waterdrop~~

Planted tanks are not a balancing act. All we need to do is supply all requirements, wih the exception of light, in excess. Otherwise, how would an EI tank work? Algae does not feed off excess nutrients, it feeds off whatever is there, including extremely low fert situations where plants will die. Plants and algae are no more in competition for nutrients than elephants and the ants around their feet. Plants do not starve algae, as is often implied. My tanks run with excess ferts 24/7, but the algae does not take advantage due to plant health/lack of bloom triggers.

Just give your plants all that they need in excess, and forget any kind of balancing act. a read of the EI sticky in the planted section explains this well. for more detail, try the Barr report.

Dave.

I got quite upset reading your first few sentences because of course I fully understand why I'm doing EI, that I'm supplying an excess of each nutrient, clearing it and then sufficiently or oversupplying it again. But then I thought, no, don't get upset - as I nearly always learn something from your posts, if not from the raw facts then from the communication of the way that a more experienced planted tank practitioner -thinks- about what he's doing - and such is the case here again.

This particular time, what you've said helps to boil it down more starkly that the central problems I need to focus more on are:
1) the actual *supplying* of *enough* of each nutrient, as its easier than one thinks to have a shortage, isn't it? And..
2) that we must wall off our minds to think of the algae separately from our nutrients - its something I know but how easily one slips into thinking it -- But, the algae war really truly -is- with the trace ammonia (are there other algae triggers?) and the light.

Learning is a funny thing - All the basic elements you've said are things I understand and have repeated in different ways but something else, something about the process or way you think about it helped me there. Makes me realize one of the reasons I value your input is that you stick around and keep helping!

OK, back to my defense of myself, as it still leaves a further question or two. I may not have expressed it well but I feel I was (trying, at least) to say the same thing, as I meant balance to be referring to -light- as balanced against all the other things. I really wanted the OP to understand that too much light was going to help trigger lots of algae (just as you said.. "with the exception of light.")

The second thing that's keeping me going here is this sentence: "My tanks run with excess ferts 24/7, but the algae does not take advantage due to plant health/lack of bloom triggers." I understand the "lack of bloom triggers" part (except as I mentioned above I need to be reminded if there are more than ammonia and light occurring together) but could you claify why you added the "due to plant health" part? What is it about healthier plants (and perhaps having -more- healthy plants?) that inhibits algae? (You've said before, I think, that you don't feel that allelopathy is a significant factor. And if its that the larger mass of healthy plants will "use up" the available nutrients in some time period, leaving not enough for algae, then I'm confused that we're trying for a constant excess and not at least -some- limitations on nutrient dosing that might be seen as crude balancing.)

WD

 

[Dave Spencer]

I got quite upset reading your first few sentences because of course I fully understand why I'm doing EI, that I'm supplying an excess of each nutrient, clearing it and then sufficiently or oversupplying it again.

First off, I apologise for this. I meant no offence, and never realised you use EI dosing.

1) the actual *supplying* of *enough* of each nutrient, as its easier than one thinks to have a shortage, isn't it?

Exactly. The figures given in the sticky are nominal for high light. Those using less light can adjust the amount they use downwards. Neither of my tanks are dosed full EI, as there is no need.

2) that we must wall off our minds to think of the algae separately from our nutrients - its something I know but how easily one slips into thinking it -- But, the algae war really truly -is- with the trace ammonia (are there other algae triggers?) and the light.

Exactly. There is no competition between algae and plants for nutrients. If this was the case, algae would win hands down and plants would disappear without trace. As for other triggers, try turning off your CO2. I often do this inadvertently when my cylinder pressure runs out. BBA on hard scape and stag horn on plant edges occur within a day or two. Spirogyra turns up shortly after this.

Not everybody I know gets Spirogyra, though, so there may be something a little different going on in my tanks I do know that people in my area using similar tap water, including The Green Machine, do experience Spirogyra under the same circumstances as me. BBA and stag horn are easy to remove, but the Spirogyra is far more tenacious.

Another well documented trigger in planted tanks is low phosphates causing GSA. The PPS dosing method is fairly notorious for triggering GSA, which is not surprising considering it runs on low phosphates to regulate growth rates. This is the only known way to trigger algae with phosphates, so you can see why one or two of us, who run phosphates in excess, cannot understand why algae is blamed on excess phosphates, without any real evidence.

What is it about healthier plants (and perhaps having -more- healthy plants?) that inhibits algae?

To put it simply, I don`t know. I have recently seen it mentioned that it could be the ammonia gradient across the leaf boundary that triggers the algae. As you know, an unhappy plant will begin to leach ammonia, which could be a signal detected by algae spores.

(You've said before, I think, that you don't feel that allelopathy is a significant factor. And if its that the larger mass of healthy plants will "use up" the available nutrients in some time period, leaving not enough for algae, then I'm confused that we're trying for a constant excess and not at least -some- limitations on nutrient dosing that might be seen as crude balancing.)

Ask yourself this: If the plants are using the available excess nutrients during some time period, then why aren`t the various alga in the tank (no tank is 100% algae free)? Are you are suggesting that the nutrients have been depleted by the end of the photoperiod, ready to be topped up again for the next photoperiod? Alga are awake and photosynthesising quicker than the higher plant forms.

This why it has been questioned that a siesta in the photoperiod inhibits the growth of algae. The reality is, it doesn`t.

WD, try starving algae out of your tank if you like, but see what effect that has on your plants. As your plants start to dissolve through various deficiencies, the nutrients released in to the water column will see an algal bloom of biblical proportions.

I find it a little surprising that you use EI, yet are still suggesting we try to limit nutrients as a means of controlling algae, when the reality is that limiting nutrients will result in the exact opposite. Even BGA is combatted by increasing NO3.

Dave.

 

[waterdrop]

Yes, going back and reading what I wrote I see that I used terms like "just the right amount of nutrients" many times in my post. I did not communicate well. I -always- mean EI when I refer to the right amount of dosing and ideally I would have made that clear. For me, in my mind (not what I communicated in this case) the struggle between "excess nutrients" and the "right amount of nutrients" is referring to the difference between the proper EI dose for a tank with hight light and pressurized CO2 versus a tank with a proper EI dosing for low-light and liquid carbon dosing (the thing Tom Barr sometimes refers to as "reduced EI" which happens to be what I attempt to practice in my own tank.) By making so many referenced to "just the right amount of nutrients" without clarifying that I opened myself up to this. I actually feel I am in nearly total agreement with you about all these things you are saying and indeed you were one of the people I learned them from.

I was not trying to cover everything, I was busy attempting to create a limited hypothetical description for the sake of a lesson (where I was really concentrating on trying to communicate that light is the driving force and that there is a big difference between having one plant and having a large plant mass.) I didn't re-read my post with a critical eye as to how if would look in a larger context than this, so its ended up being a failed attempt at a lesson I'm afraid.

But I'm glad you mention your thought about a larger, healthy, plant mass possibly making a difference in the algae situation because of its own actions with ammonia. This is an idea that makes sense. When plants are healthy many will take in absorb significant amounts of ammonia and, quite the opposite, when they are struggling, they will begin to possibly both leach ammonia and also shed dead plant cells which will be turned in to ammonia by heterotrophic bacteria.

I have been taking a rather long time conducting my own little experiment with a crypt, a fairly large number of java ferns, an anubia and a sword, all amounting to not really a very significant plant mass and having only barely over 1w/g T8, liquid carbon and reduced EI. Flow is over 5x and there's an additional Koralia that runs during the daytime. This has had a mild diatom problem since its beginning and the experiment has been to try various changes and watch for reductions in diatoms. Ironically, right about the time we've been discussing this, I finally added more plants, which I've been wanting to do for quite a while. I added two pretty large and healthy swords and 4 healthy tiger vals (or whichever val variation I've got of the taller thinner (leaves maybe 20" long, up and across the surface.) My short term observation is that this has produced the strongest response yet of reducing the diatoms. I'm also quite pleased not have lost the val leaves immediately - I'd been avoiding them but they seem to be doing surprisingly well and its been several weeks. I was particularly worried that my liquid carbon dosing would not be to their liking.

WD

 

[Dave Spencer]

I have been taking a rather long time conducting my own little experiment..... This has had a mild diatom problem since its beginning and the experiment has been to try various changes and watch for reductions in diatoms..... Ironically, right about the time we've been discussing this, I finally added more plants, which I've been wanting to do for quite a while. I added two pretty large and healthy swords and 4 healthy tiger vals My short term observation is that this has produced the strongest response yet of reducing the diatoms... WD

Zeolite is the answer for zero diatoms.

Dave.

 

[waterdrop]

I have been taking a rather long time conducting my own little experiment..... This has had a mild diatom problem since its beginning and the experiment has been to try various changes and watch for reductions in diatoms..... Ironically, right about the time we've been discussing this, I finally added more plants, which I've been wanting to do for quite a while. I added two pretty large and healthy swords and 4 healthy tiger vals My short term observation is that this has produced the strongest response yet of reducing the diatoms... WD

Zeolite is the answer for zero diatoms.

Dave.

Hey, what about the Seachem Purigen I remember you using? Have you tried different types of things of this sort (back and forth between Purigen and Zeolite products?) Will Purigen stay contained in a mesh bag? WD

 

[Bettawhisperer]

It's called Black Algae. Actually they say it's red but it looks black. About the only way to get rid of it is to take everything with it on it out of the tank and give everything a mild chlorine bath and then rinse it will before putting it back in the tank.

 

[Dave Spencer]

Hey, what about the Seachem Purigen I remember you using? Have you tried different types of things of this sort (back and forth between Purigen and Zeolite products?) Will Purigen stay contained in a mesh bag? WD

They do different jobs. Purigen gives crystal clear water and is very efficient at removing tannins and other discolourants. I can fill a tank with wood and never see a yellow/brown tinge. I buy it in bags for convenience.

Zeolite removes ammonia and helps keep a new tank algae free. It later becomes filter media when it is exhausted. By this time, my plants and bacteria should be on top of ammonia production to the detriment of algae.

It's called Black Algae. Actually they say it's red but it looks black. About the only way to get rid of it is to take everything with it on it out of the tank and give everything a mild chlorine bath and then rinse it will before putting it back in the tank.

I couldn`t disagree with this more. Understanding the causes and taking steps to prevent them happening again is by far the best way. No way could I remove everything from my tanks.

Dave.

 

[Bettawhisperer]

Oh I agree prevention is the best but this type of black algae is a pretty tough thing and calls for drastic measures.

 

[Dave Spencer]

Oh I agree prevention is the best but this type of black algae is a pretty tough thing and calls for drastic measures.

Going by the OP`s description, it sounds like BGA in a planted tank.

Causes: low nitrates, poor circulation, poor CO2, inadequate tank maintenance. It often originates in the substrate where light hits it.

Solution: clean out as much as you can, carry out as big a water change as is possible, and then black the tank out for 3/4 days. During this black out, figure out which of the above are the most likely causes, and what steps you are going to take to cure them....and everything stays in the tank. Voila!

Dave.

Disclaimer: assuming of course that it is BGA.

 

[waterdrop]

Hey, what about the Seachem Purigen I remember you using? Have you tried different types of things of this sort (back and forth between Purigen and Zeolite products?) Will Purigen stay contained in a mesh bag? WD

They do different jobs. Purigen gives crystal clear water and is very efficient at removing tannins and other discolourants. I can fill a tank with wood and never see a yellow/brown tinge. I buy it in bags for convenience.

Zeolite removes ammonia and helps keep a new tank algae free. It later becomes filter media when it is exhausted. By this time, my plants and bacteria should be on top of ammonia production to the detriment of algae.

OK, Thanks, I couldn't remember whether I'd heard you say Purigen could also remove trace ammonia. I actually might have some zeolite left from an Aquaclear years ago, does the stuff last forever or would it have absorbed things from the air over time, sitting in the box? WD

 

[Spike14913]

Hi, this happens on the glass of my tank but it's only when the bubbles from the filter are pointing at it. When I turn the filter away from the glass it goes away. Maybe try that.
 
Hope it helps