High Ammonia, Fish Dying, Fairly New Tank And Novice - Help! :(

[Taurus]

This tank is about 8 weeks old, set up, cycled and stocked exactly to the advice of LFS. They were recommended to us by several local keepers as trusted knowlegable people.

Tank size: 45 litres
pH: 8.4
ammonia: Test goes up to 6 and it's showing maximum
nitrite: 0
nitrate: 25
tank temp: 26 degrees

Fish Symptoms (include full description including lesion, color, location, fish behavior):
2 Dead neon tetras yesterday, 1 dead black Molly today. Killi looking pale and swimming erratically, remaining neon hiding. All fish swimming about quite quickly and being more aggressive than usual to each other.

Volume and Frequency of water changes:
Normally 10% weekly after cycling. Yesterday did emergency 50% change and today 10% as per LFS advice.

Chemical Additives or Media in your tank:
Normally use Stress Zyme and aquasafe at each change and today have used 1ml Prime.

Tank inhabitants:
2 platties
1 Molly (1 deceased)
1 neon tetra (2 deceased)
2 electric blue rams
1 australe Killi gourami
1 algae eater
1 Siamese fighter
2 dwarf gouramis

Recent additions to your tank (living or decoration):
2 dwarf Gouramis added 3 days ago

Exposure to chemicals:
*potentially* used the wrong bucket during last water change 4 days ago and swilled filter sponge in extracted aquarium water. The bucket may have been previously used for cleaning. Stupid rookie hate myself error, I know! Have new different colour bucket now!

LFS have said add Stress Zyme every day and Prime every other day. Wait and hope testing regularly.
I did a 10% change today as well.
The fish do seen a little less frantic and erratic than they were this morning...

Fishy friend 1 says do a 20-30% change every day.
Fishy friend 2 says siphon all water into a bucket, scoop fish in, then clean out gravel thoroughly under running water then return to tank with existing water and fish. This sounds like a bad idea but he is worried I have too much waste in the substrate.
Sister says put fish in a casserole dish with a bit of tank water. Clean all of tank, ornaments and filter with boiling water and then return fish with fresh water - Uh NO!!!

There's so much conflicting advice online I'm so lost and don't want to cause my fish any more suffering!

 

[TallTree01]

First off, sorry for the harsh sounding of this response.

None of the fish they sold are suitable for that tnak except the betta but he will get killed by the other fish soon.

The problem is your ammonia. It should be always at 0. I suspect that your tank is not cycled. Try to take as many fish back and start a fishless cycle which will minimize fish loss.

 

[Taurus]

Why are none of the fish suitable?

Yes I realise the ammonia is the problem. The tank was cycled and the shop tested the water to confirm before we were sold any more than the 3 fish we set it up with...

 

[TallTree01]

Leif the tank was cycled there would be no ammonia. All the fish cept the betta either get too big or need more space to swim in for a 45 liter. There are species other than bettas which can live in a 45 liter it's just that you have picked none of them .

 

[Taurus]

Really? in my old tank I had Molly's, platties, neons for years they never got bigger than the ones I have now. The Siamese fighter doesn't need much room surely?
Basically, being a novice, I picked precisely the fish the LFS said were suitable for the tank and compatible etc.

There was no ammonia when they tested if it was set up. What I'm guessing is maybe I overfed or I killed the filter using the wrong bucket....either of those possible?

 

[Chad]

What test kit are you using? The presence of ammonia may be due to an error in testing. This can happen with lower end test kits or kits that have a color chart that is difficult to read.
 
The presence of nitrate along with the ammonia (though not impossible) is often a signal that testing is off.
 
As for the stocking of the tank I have to agree with Mr. TallTree01 the tank is overstocked and stocked with the wrong fish.
 
This is also one way you can have ammonia in a tank that is cycled. Bacterial populations will grow based upon their food supply. A tank can be cycled with one fish but not for 4 fish. This is because they will grow to a population able to process the amount of food available to them once you add more food (ie fish waste) they will begin to increase their population but this takes time so the tank goes through a cycle or mini-cycle. This is why I always recommend stocking slowly to give the bacteria time to catch up.
 
Frequent water changes will get the ammonia down. This article on cycling should provide you with some helpful information http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/421488-cycling-your-new-fresh-water-tank-read-this-first/.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

for a start- that is way way too big a load for that size tank.
 
If you could have that number of fish in a cycled tank without having done a 5-6 week fishless cycle first, it should take about 6 to 7 months. And you can not start with almost any of them in the tank.
 
You need to rehome a number of the fish and then either find somebody o donate cycled media to you are else see if you can buy some Tetra Safe Start or DrTim's One and only Nitrifying bacteria. In a pinch stability by SeaChem might help, but it is not a long term solution. However it will possibly give you a bridge to the right bacteria establishing. Check the thread here http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/150631-list-of-members-willing-to-donate-mature-filter-media-to-newbies/ I do not know who is active or if they are in good parts of Scotland.
 
Had you asked me in advance what fish to add and how many to cycle your tank with fish I would have suggested you go fishlees but if you insisted the answer would have been: 1 or 2 small zebra danios or barbs. It should then take you about 5-6 weeks to get a tank cycled for just them and you will likely need to do a few water changes along the way. Then you could have added one new fish and taken a few weeks for the tank recycle for such a big increase (50%) in the bio-load (ammonia production). Your next addition of one fish would be much less of an issue as it only adds 33% to the bio-load.
 
The selection of fish for cycling has nothing to do with what one wants to keep long term. It is based on fish likely best able to handle elevated ammonia and nitrite for a few weeks.
 
So you can see how and why it takes many months to get a tank fully cycled and stocked when doing with fish in.

 

[Lillefishy]

The Lfs are there to sell you fish & you have way too many fish.
Your filter wasn't correctly cycled so can't cope with the waste your fish are producing.
You really need to rehome most of the fish, in the meantime do a large water change 80-90% followed by another similar water change, you need to get that ammonia down or all your fish will die.

 

[Taurus]

our instruction to set up was as follows:

Set up tank, filter, heater etc etc and run empty for 1 week.
Add 2 Mollys and 1 platty and cycle for 3 weeks.
After 3 weeks they tested and said tank was cycled.
We were told not to change water during this time.
The next week we were told we could have another 3 fish so we got another platty, Killi and Siamese fighter.
Next week we were told we could add 6 so chose small algae eater, 2 EB rams and 3 neons
Last week we were told we could have up to 20 fish but we decided to get just 2 more and stop at that. That was the dwarf Gouramis.

So sounds like things were ok to begin with but got worse and worse as we stocked the tank too quickly and too much. I'm really disappointed as we thought by following LFS advice to the letter we would be ok.

It's not going to be easy finding the fish a different home. How many fish can that tank hold safely? And how long should it take to stick to that level?

In the meantime - damage control - wont a 80-90% change be stressful for them? Must I vacuum the gravel at the same time or leave it to preserve bacteria?

Sorry so many questions.
tcamos...I'm using API ammonia test strips and my reading from them matched the reading taken using the dropper test in LFS.

 

[fluttermoth]

It is true that 80 or 90% water changes might stress your fish out a bit, but it is far, far more important to get the ammonia level down.

The stress won't kill you fish, if the new water is temperature matched and dechlorinated; the ammonia definitely will.

I would gravel vacuum at the same time. The amount of bacteria living in the substrate is minimal especially in new tanks, but the left over food and poop down there needs to come out to help your water stay 'clean'.

 

[Taurus]

Might be a daft question but where do I put the fish if I take that much water out? leave them in just enough water to swim?

 

[TallTree01]

Might be a daft question but where do I put the fish if I take that much water out? leave them in just enough water to swim?

Either a bucket or just leave em in teh tank.

 

[Taurus]

why didn't the LFS tell me to do a big change? They said don't change at all just use chemicals (expensive chemicals!) and wait.

Feel like I don't trust them anymore even though they were recommended.

 

[TallTree01]

why didn't the LFS tell me to do a big change? They said don't change at all just use chemicals (expensive chemicals!) and wait.
Feel like I don't trust them anymore even though they were recommended.

To make some $$$ off of you. They're job is to sell, not ensure the health and safety of their stock. Rather sad really.

 

[fluttermoth]

Might be a daft question but where do I put the fish if I take that much water out? leave them in just enough water to swim?

No question is considered daft on this forum, apart from the ones that aren't asked

Yes, just leave just enough water for the fish to swim upright (don't forget to switch your heater/filter off first!) before refiling with warmed, dechlorinated water.