Guppies Queuing Up To Die

[svenrufus]

A bit of a preamble, then the stats below. After losing innumerable neons and rasboras over a period of months to an unidentified ailment, when the last of them died, I restocked my daughters tank with Guppies, thinking that by switching species if there was still some of whatever had been killing the old fish in the tank, it was less likely to get the new fish. It was around August that we restocked. Throughout this time we have had 3 Otos living happily alongside whoever else was in the tank. They are not suffering at all.

So for a little while after restocking all was well, then one after another, the guppies started to die. They would get listless, hanging around the top of the tank, their tails closed up and drooping. They would then often (but not always) get a curved spine, and/or swim on one side. They would die after a couple of days of this. I got a hospital tank set up, and started treating them in there with all manner of different things that various fish shops recommended with confidence, but none of them worked. One guppy seemed to recover, but then died a couple of weeks later.

So having lost all of the first batch of guppies, I left the tank for a bit doing frequent large water changes, to flush things through. Slowly began restocking, and as of two weeks ago, was up to three guppies. Yesterday, out of the blue, with none of the previous symptoms, one of the newest ones (2 weeks) died. This morning a second one was dead. The third guppy, the one I got first maybe 3-4 weeks ago is looking a bit sorry for itself.

It seems to me that the health of the Otos suggests that the water is OK. I find it odd that if there is a disease in the tank, it seems to work in sequence, taking out one fish at a time rather than sweeping through all the fish at the same time. I really am at a loss. Given that this has been going on for konths, this might not seem like an emergency, but there is a 5 year old girl at school at the moment who will be coming home tonight to find that 2 more of her lovely guppies are dead - possibly all 3 of them. Its been so upsetting how often I've had to tell her that another of her fish has died.

Tank size: 40L - Interpet Fishpod Moon

pH: 7-7.5
ammonia:0
nitrite0.1
nitrate:5-10
kH:?
gH:?
I had a full water test done at the fish shop the other day incase I was doing it wrong, they said all was good. I don't know the kH and gH, but they said it was fine.
tank temp:26 showing on the thermometer, 23 set on the thermostat

Fish Symptoms (include full description including lesion, color, location, fish behavior):
As I've described, at the moment, there were no symptoms, they died out of the blue. The remaining one looks a little listless, but I wouldn't have noticed possibly if the others hadn't died. Previously there have been bent spines, swimming on their sides, hiding at the top, avoiding the light, tails closed and drooping

Volume and Frequency of water changes:
25-50% once a week. (been slightly less often sometimes while the tank so empty, but water stats always been OK

Chemical Additives or Media in your tank:
I use Interpet Flora Boost, and Interpet Fresh Start and Melafix in the main tank when changing the water. Filtration is the interpet system that came with the tank, a carbon filter and white filter, ceramic things. I sometimes take the carbon one out for a while when adding Flora Boost.

Tank inhabitants: Other than the dwindling guppies, there are 3 Otos, a few RCS (which have stopped breeding by the way, and have been some loses here too, in case that is relevant) and a lot of snails. I think they are trumpet snails, and were getting out of hand so I have just added an Assassin Snail.

Recent additions to your tank (living or decoration): Assassin snail (3-4 weeks ago), and the 2 guppies which died (2 weeks ago)

Exposure to chemicals: I haven't added any treatments lately. I have used Interpet anti bacterial, and Protozin White Spot and Fungus treatment - these were only in the hospital tank, to avoid harming the RCS with the copper in the treatment.

Hope someone can help

 

[phoenixgsd]

the first thing i noticed was your temps, they are quite low, can i ask why you add melafix during a water change? all you need is a dechlorinator

 

[Baccus]

Sorry to hear that your having such terrible luck with guppies, do you know by any chance if they had any special names like tuxedo, platinum? I know many guppies now days are not as hardy as the good old stock and careful line breeding to develop consistant colours has taken its toll on genetic diverstiy in guppies.

Also when the shop said your water was fine, did they give you the actual numbers? Many fish shops will say brand new water with no trace of fish ever being near the water is perfect.

I am also wondering if the shop that you perchased the guppies from might be putting aquarium salts in for the guppies, while at home you are keeping them in fresh for the otocinclus and shrimp.

I also have a question, why where you adding melafix to the water when doing water changes? Unless it was to treat for some illness it's not needed. All you really need to do when doing water changes is ensure the new water is the same temp as the tank water and that you add a dechlorinator to the water. Also any carbon in the filter would be removing the melafix from the tank.

23 might be a bit on the cool side for the otocinclus but guppies can handle warmer and cooler water...well mine thrive in tanks that over the course of a year can range from as low as 18 degrees cel up to over 33 degrees cel. This is not ideal, and I would never suggest anybody try to keep guppies at these sort of temps constantly, but it does show they are very addaptable

 

[svenrufus]

the first thing i noticed was your temps, they are quite low, can i ask why you add melafix during a water change? all you need is a dechlorinator

I add melafix as when I do water change, half the new water comes from a water butt, so its kind of a token jesture in case there's something living in the water from there. I wasn't sure that it would really make a difference, but figured it wouldn't hurt.
I'll up the temperature - I dropped it on the thermostat as the thermometer was showing a higher temp - wasn't sure which to beleive.

 

[svenrufus]

Sorry to hear that your having such terrible luck with guppies, do you know by any chance if they had any special names like tuxedo, platinum? I know many guppies now days are not as hardy as the good old stock and careful line breeding to develop consistant colours has taken its toll on genetic diverstiy in guppies.

Also when the shop said your water was fine, did they give you the actual numbers? Many fish shops will say brand new water with no trace of fish ever being near the water is perfect.

I am also wondering if the shop that you perchased the guppies from might be putting aquarium salts in for the guppies, while at home you are keeping them in fresh for the otocinclus and shrimp.

I also have a question, why where you adding melafix to the water when doing water changes? Unless it was to treat for some illness it's not needed. All you really need to do when doing water changes is ensure the new water is the same temp as the tank water and that you add a dechlorinator to the water. Also any carbon in the filter would be removing the melafix from the tank.

23 might be a bit on the cool side for the otocinclus but guppies can handle warmer and cooler water...well mine thrive in tanks that over the course of a year can range from as low as 18 degrees cel up to over 33 degrees cel. This is not ideal, and I would never suggest anybody try to keep guppies at these sort of temps constantly, but it does show they are very addaptable

A few things here then. Yes some of the guppies did have names. I can't remember them all, but they were things like Flame, or Leopard Tail. I got them from 3 different shops. I did wonder about that apsect, and didn't expect them to live so long necessarily because of that, but 2 weeks seems a bit harsh.

The water test in the shop confirmed the readings I had taken at home, although they thought I had higer nitrates, but that was just before a water change, The numbers were still in the good band, although I don't recall the numbers he gave me there. gH and kH I didn't notice the numbers, but I watched him do it and saw where he matched the colours against the chart, He commented that these were lower than he expected, which is because I use 50% rainwater while we live in a very hard water area.

The shops I've been to have all the tanks connected and the water supplied by RO apparently. So whatever water their guppies had would be the same water as the water for shrimps and otos.

The melafix I add due to the water coming from outside. As I said in another reply, I figured that it would at worst be pointless. Could this be a problem? I take the carbon out when adding the flora boost, didn't know it would take out the melafix too.

The cooler water doesn't seem to bother the otos - they are looking very plump and happy. The guppies look happy too - up to the point they die :^(

I'm wondering if there is some disease/parasite in the water that I won't be able to get rid of and need to change fish selection to not just keep having disasters like this. It's upsetting for me, but expaining to the Little Girl is even worse.

Thanks for you time on this

 

[the_lock_man]

That's a weird one. It says a lot about the hardiness of guppies these days when otos are more hardy than guppies (guppies used to be indestructable, whilst otos are known to be quite sensitive).

One thing I can add to the above is that it is often difficult to keep hard water fish, such as guppies, in soft water. But your pH is high, which, whilst we don't know your KH, does indicate that your water is reasonably hard - the two often go hand in hand, but not in every instance.

Another thought - you mentioned that you sometimes remove the carbon filter when adding the Flora Boost. Maybe, just maybe, removing that is also removing some bacteria, which maybe causing a mini-cycle, which was then sorted by the time you took your last water test - the very slight raise in nitrite could be indicative of this.

There is also some talk about carbon filters leeching heavy metals back into the water when the carbon is saturated - IIRC this is only in extreme pH circumstances, but it's gotta be something left-field, cos it isn't anything obvious.

I'd be inclined to replace your carbon filter with some more sponges and ceramics, monitor your stats closely, to see if you get either an ammo or nitrite spike, and see how the situation progresses from there. I'd also be inclined to replace the guppies with platies, there have been so many "guppies dieing" threads recently, I wonder whether the wholesalers have got some particularly weak stock at the moment. Platies, I've found, are pretty hardy, and pretty colourful too, so your daughter should like them. If you do, make sure the retailer gets you all one gender, or a ratio of at least 1male to 3 females.

Hope I've helped.

EDIT: Just noticed you're from Brighton, so your tapwater will be very hard, coming off the chalk downs. So that won't be the problem.

 

[svenrufus]

That's a weird one. It says a lot about the hardiness of guppies these days when otos are more hardy than guppies (guppies used to be indestructable, whilst otos are known to be quite sensitive).

One thing I can add to the above is that it is often difficult to keep hard water fish, such as guppies, in soft water. But your pH is high, which, whilst we don't know your KH, does indicate that your water is reasonably hard - the two often go hand in hand, but not in every instance.

Another thought - you mentioned that you sometimes remove the carbon filter when adding the Flora Boost. Maybe, just maybe, removing that is also removing some bacteria, which maybe causing a mini-cycle, which was then sorted by the time you took your last water test - the very slight raise in nitrite could be indicative of this.

There is also some talk about carbon filters leeching hard metals back into the water when the carbon is saturated - IIRC this is only in extreme pH circumstances, but it's gotta be something left-field, cos it isn't anything obvious.

I'd be inclined to replace your carbon filter with some more sponges and ceramics, monitor your stats closely, to see if you get either an ammo or nitrite spike, and see how the situation progresses from there. I'd also be inclined to replace the guppies with platies, there have been so many "guppies dieing" threads recently, I wonder whether the wholesalers have got some particularly weak stock at the moment. Platies, I've found, are pretty hardy, and pretty colourful too, so your daughter should like them. If you do, make sure the retailer gets you all one gender, or a ratio of at least 1male to 3 females.

Hope I've helped.

Thanks for that.
I don't think the carbon removal has been an issue tbh, as all tests I've done at all times have been consistent in the readings (apart from fluctuations in the NO3, but still in the safe zone). I think that's even less likely now that the stock density in the tank is so low. Also, as it seems to pick them off one by one, I would have thought that water issues would get them all at the same time. It is, as you say, a weird one.

The water is still pretty hard. I live on chalk, and the water from the tap is a nightmare for scaling the kettle up. I'm only mixing it half and half, so can't see it as being a problem. I did for a while - some time back - go for 100% rainwater, but started to worry about the shrimps not getting enouch Ca, so went to 50/50.

I think the thing with Carbon filters is that they get saturated and then start leeching back. I hadn't heard anyone saying that would be the case just from water conditions otherwise. Again though, if the water was bad, I would have thought it would affect all the fish at the same time.

I am inclined to change tack and get a different type of fish. Whether I can persuade a 5 year old that this is the right thing to do, remains to be seen.

 

[the_lock_man]

In any event, the carbon stops working after a week or 2, so it just becomes another area for the bacteria to grow. I personally don't use a carbon filter unless I'm removing heavy metals, such as in a medication, from the water. A decent dechlorinator removes heavy metals anyway, so carbon just isn't needed, it's just an excuse for the manufacturer to fleece for more of your hard-earned. Next time you remove it, don't bother putting it back, stick some more sponge or ceramic in.

 

[Baccus]

Ok, please bear with me while I do some sherlock work.
When you purchased the guppies how many did you get? I am wondering if an influx of more fish into a system that previoulsy only housed a couple of oto's and shrimp may have gone into a mini cycle while the filter bacteria played catch up to the new level of fish waste. And what sized tank do you have?
Apart from the otocinclus, snails and shrimp is there any other inhabitants in the tank?
Did you ever witness any bullying between the guppies?
Otocinclus are usually a very safe fish to keep with any other fish, but and this is a HUGE but on rare occasions they have been reported to have a snack on the slim coat on fish, this is usually reported as happening with otocinclus kept with Discus which have a pretty thick slim coat. But it is about the last possibility I can think of.

If your wanting to avoid guppies for now, platties have already been suggested, but I would also suggest swordtails, or if your tank is big enough maybe you could look at getting one really special fish as a centre peice fish that your child can name and easily pick out from a crowd.Normally a gourami would be my suggested fish but they are avid shrimp eaters.

Oh, and I dare say the RCS would have slowed down with the breeding with the lower tank temp, now its warmer again as long as you still have a mox of sexes they a will be off breeding again in no time.

 

[svenrufus]

Ok, please bear with me while I do some sherlock work.
When you purchased the guppies how many did you get? I am wondering if an influx of more fish into a system that previoulsy only housed a couple of oto's and shrimp may have gone into a mini cycle while the filter bacteria played catch up to the new level of fish waste. And what sized tank do you have?
Apart from the otocinclus, snails and shrimp is there any other inhabitants in the tank?
Did you ever witness any bullying between the guppies?
Otocinclus are usually a very safe fish to keep with any other fish, but and this is a HUGE but on rare occasions they have been reported to have a snack on the slim coat on fish, this is usually reported as happening with otocinclus kept with Discus which have a pretty thick slim coat. But it is about the last possibility I can think of.

If your wanting to avoid guppies for now, platties have already been suggested, but I would also suggest swordtails, or if your tank is big enough maybe you could look at getting one really special fish as a centre peice fish that your child can name and easily pick out from a crowd.Normally a gourami would be my suggested fish but they are avid shrimp eaters.

Oh, and I dare say the RCS would have slowed down with the breeding with the lower tank temp, now its warmer again as long as you still have a mox of sexes they a will be off breeding again in no time.

Hi there
The guppies were bought a few at a time, no more than three at once, over the space of a couple of weeks. The tank is 39L In total, there were 11, all small. When they were all in, there were a total of 14 fish, up to 6 shrimps, and back then, no snails - they joined us later. I was worried that I might have overdone the fish, so planned on regular water changes and monitoring. The water quality according to my tests has been pretty consistent, the only fluctuations are in NO3, but the range of that is quite limited as I have plants that seem to be dampening it down and always stayed in the safe zone. There are no other inhabitants. The tank has 3 plants, plus two plastic ones, a spiky ball, two small bits of bogwood and a small slate - quite a bit of extra surface area for bacteria. I'm pretty sure that the cycling wasn't an issue, as the problem took a good while to take all the fish, and at the end the tank was virtually empty, but still the ones left died.

Bullying - actually, not until I got a few more in the last few weeks. And the one that looked like it might have been bullied (I didn't see it, but his tail has gone a bit raggedy) is the one that is still alive!

Never seen the otos having a go at the live fish although I have found them on the dead fish once or twice. Also, while some died in the main tank, others died in the hospital tank, on a slow decline just as had been seen in the main tank. Don't think that was an issue.

The one that was left doesn't seem to have got any worrse since yesterday, but still not looking top drawer - a bit dim, and while swimming about OK, he's not as active as he was when he was new in the tank.

The Little Girl rejected the suggestion of Platies and Swordtails. We've gone for Neons again, and maybe get another sort of terta later.

so frustrating to have this problem, and not have a clue what is going on.

Thanks all for all your help.