Gouramis acting strangely

Fox46

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We have two gold gouramis in a 60l tank with 5 black widow tetra. (I know now that's probably too small and we're working on upgrading which is difficult with covid restrictions.) The tank was properly cycled over ten weeks without fish and we've had these 2 about 5 weeks. All was going well but then one started hiding, whilst the other was swimming about freely. We thought the first was hiding because the other was bothering him, but now the second one is hiding, though not so much as the first and neither are coming up to eat the past two days. We've checked the water parameters are ok (we do that several times a week) including ph and hardness, ph 7.4 and kh 12, and we've always done regular water-changes, today a 35% change. I don't know what to do next. To be honest, I think the first one is a lost cause, he isn't even coming up to the surface for air. The other one does. The b/w Tetra all seem fine. Any ideas?
 
I would suspect the tetras are frightening the gourami. You realize the tank (60 liter, 15 gallon) is too small for these fish, and they need to be separated ASAP. I realize the covid issue, but separation is still what is needed. The two gourami will not last long.

Gold gourami is one of the more aggressive gourami; when I began reading your post I was thinking you probably have either two males or a male/female, and the male is beginning to exert his territorial dominance. Sometimes females can do this too, though perhaps less often. But now that both are under "attack" and scared, it is more likely the Black Skirt Tetras.

This tetra is notorious for being mildly aggressive (or worse), and fin nipping. A group of five in this small a space offers the gourami no chance of avoiding them. The aggression can be physical, with actual attacks and fin-nipping, or it can be chemical communication between the fish. Fish release chemical signals called phermones and allomones, and other fish read these. They can convey various signals, including aggression.
 
Thanks for that. I didn't know that about black widow Tetra. (I think we should chuck our reference books out the window.) We're not seeing any aggression between the two species, in fact the gourami have been very clear 'bosses' so far, but the chemical signals are obviously something we can't see/control and it's more than feasible this is the problem. Realistically, even if we could source a tank quickly we'd still have to cycle it, and from the look of things there won't be enough time. We have another tank, a 180 litre tank started at the same time but that's up to its limit with four gold gourami, 6 pearl, 6 corys and 5 guppies (we were badly advised at the outset and that's why we're looking for a bigger tank to reallocate what we've got). There are no problems in there just yet but another two might just tip the balance. Maybe we'll just have to crack on with the plans for the bigger tank and keep our fingers crossed. I have a 'hiding' hollow log due to arrive in the next few days which might alleviate the situation temporarily but on balance, the outlook doesn't look too good. Thank you for your advice.
 
Thanks for that. I didn't know that about black widow Tetra. (I think we should chuck our reference books out the window.) We're not seeing any aggression between the two species, in fact the gourami have been very clear 'bosses' so far, but the chemical signals are obviously something we can't see/control and it's more than feasible this is the problem. Realistically, even if we could source a tank quickly we'd still have to cycle it, and from the look of things there won't be enough time. We have another tank, a 180 litre tank started at the same time but that's up to its limit with four gold gourami, 6 pearl, 6 corys and 5 guppies (we were badly advised at the outset and that's why we're looking for a bigger tank to reallocate what we've got). There are no problems in there just yet but another two might just tip the balance. Maybe we'll just have to crack on with the plans for the bigger tank and keep our fingers crossed. I have a 'hiding' hollow log due to arrive in the next few days which might alleviate the situation temporarily but on balance, the outlook doesn't look too good. Thank you for your advice.

It is unfortunate to say the least that so many fish store staff have really little or even no idea about fish species. On this forum we see this all the time. Now you will feel bad watching things unfold. Moral here is, always check with a knowledgeable source (online site like Seriously Fish, or this forum) before acquisition. Lesson we all learned from similar situations.

The Black Skirt Tetras will always be a problem, as they need more space than the 60 liter tank, and they limit other fish options. You might try to return them. I'm afraid you could have issues in the larger tank you mentino, depending upon things. The gold gourami is as I said an aggressive fish; this may or may not be evident now, but other members have had it suddenly appear literally overnight. One member had a female gold gourami that killed any other fish in the tank, and it had to be isolated. The Pearls should be OK, except the golds may decide to end their residency at some point.
 
Do a 75% water change, this should at least temporarily reduce the chemical levels in the water from the fish. To separate them if you have a large clean container you can stick a heater and air stone in there until you can either get another tank or rehome them
 
It is unfortunate to say the least that so many fish store staff have really little or even no idea about fish species. On this forum we see this all the time. Now you will feel bad watching things unfold. Moral here is, always check with a knowledgeable source (online site like Seriously Fish, or this forum) before acquisition. Lesson we all learned from similar situations.

The Black Skirt Tetras will always be a problem, as they need more space than the 60 liter tank, and they limit other fish options. You might try to return them. I'm afraid you could have issues in the larger tank you mentino, depending upon things. The gold gourami is as I said an aggressive fish; this may or may not be evident now, but other members have had it suddenly appear literally overnight. One member had a female gold gourami that killed any other fish in the tank, and it had to be isolated. The Pearls should be OK, except the golds may decide to end their residency at some point.
In fairness, the choice of B/W Tetra came from a reference book. Just looked it up again tonight, and it describes the BWT as a peaceful shoaling fish which might nip long-finned fish such as guppies or Siamese fighting fish. It also recommended a group of at least 4 in a minimum 60x30x30cm tank. I'll just put it down to experience, I guess. Only ever one way to learn and that's the hard way. Thanks again.
 
Do a 75% water change, this should at least temporarily reduce the chemical levels in the water from the fish. To separate them if you have a large clean container you can stick a heater and air stone in there until you can either get another tank or rehome them
Thanks for that. We said tonight we'd do another water change tomorrow so we'll make it a big one in the hope that we can alleviate the situation. I'll think about how we might temporarily rehouse them, but it's likely to be several weeks and I'm worried about that. We're seeding a spare filter in each of the two tanks right now, one's been going for six weeks or more, the other about a week - how long do you reckon it would take to cycle a new tank using them?
 
I agree with @Byron I raise primarily tetras and have avoided black skirt tetras. They should be kept in shoal of at least 6 as with most tetras , the more the better. They also need more space to swim. I have a 55 gallon tank that gives most tetras the room they need for the size of their shoals and to swim. Try lowering your lights, most tetras come from South American Jungle streams and are less stressed in the shade. That may help mellow them some until you can re-home them or what ever you end up doing. Good luck
 
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In fairness, the choice of B/W Tetra came from a reference book. Just looked it up again tonight, and it describes the BWT as a peaceful shoaling fish which might nip long-finned fish such as guppies or Siamese fighting fish. It also recommended a group of at least 4 in a minimum 60x30x30cm tank. I'll just put it down to experience, I guess. Only ever one way to learn and that's the hard way. Thanks again.

One has to be careful of sources, whether book or internet. Not a lot of study has been done on shoaling numbers, and without data there will always be those skeptics who don't believe the rational deductions of those who really do know.

There was a study a couple of years ago that looked into the effects of minimal numbers for a select few species. They found that with fewer than five, fish that were normally mildly aggressive became much more so, while normally peaceful species became slightly aggressive. It is clear that fish are impacted when they are forced into situations that are not what they expect, like too few of their own, inadequate space, inappropriate tankmates, substantially-different water parameters, inadequate habitat, etc. The fish has few means with which to react, and like most animals, aggression is a key reaction that tells us something is wrong.
 
You can try using Tetra SafeStart Plus to jump start your tank, please read up on it and check this sites cycling section before you try it.
 
Thanks for that. We said tonight we'd do another water change tomorrow so we'll make it a big one in the hope that we can alleviate the situation. I'll think about how we might temporarily rehouse them, but it's likely to be several weeks and I'm worried about that. We're seeding a spare filter in each of the two tanks right now, one's been going for six weeks or more, the other about a week - how long do you reckon it would take to cycle a new tank using them?

That depends upon the tank space (water volume), numbers, supplementing bacteria, live plants. If you have live plants, and if they are floating plants, you would not even have a cycle as such. Seeding the bacteria can help, and using a bacterial supplement like Tetra's SafeStart or even a similar product. What is your tap water GH and pH? These can impact cycling.
 
Good floating plants are hornwort, moneywort, anacharis and water sprite. They are easy to take care of and you can plant them or leave them float. I do both. Also another good plant is frogbite which floats. They absorb what they need from the water (ammonia).
 
I agree with @Byron I raise primarily tetras and have avoided black skirt tetras. They should be kept in shoal of at least 6 as with most tetras , the more the better. They also need more space to swim. I have a 55 gallon tank that gives most tetras the room they need for the size of their shoals and to swim. Try lowering your lights, most tetras come from South American Jungle streams and are less stressed in the shade. That may help mellow them some until you can re-home them or what ever you end up doing. Good luck
Interesting point about the lights. This tank is a very basic kit with no light variation, so before introducing fish we taped up a few sections of it as we felt it was too bright. Due to brown algae problems starting up I recently increased the length of the illumination period from six hours a day to ten, which more or less coincides with this change in behaviour. Maybe we'll tape up some more and reduce the length of illumination. Certainly this morning, after eleven hours in the dark, both gourami are more visibly active. Thanks for that tip.
 
Good floating plants are hornwort, moneywort, anacharis and water sprite. They are easy to take care of and you can plant them or leave them float. I do both. Also another good plant is frogbite which floats. They absorb what they need from the water (ammonia).
Thanks for the tips. I'll see where I can source them.
 

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