Fish keeping absolutes

The April FOTM Contest Poll is open!
FishForums.net Fish of the Month
šŸ† Click to vote! šŸ†

Exceptions: what if you never deal with ammonia, but less toxic ammonium combined with regular water changes?

Right now, I am a week after a long distance move, and all my filters took a hard hit. I'm effectively rebooting a lot of cycles at once. I expect to lose no fish, and I see no signs of undue stress. No red gills, no clamping, no quick respiration. The fish are looking fine. By next week, I expect they will be starting to lay eggs again - the true indicator of how healthy they are.

Most of the fish deaths we blame on the cycle are probably acclimation and shipping damage that would happen in a fully cycled QT tank. They are often the result of overstocking, enthusiastic overfeeding and latent diseases from fish farms. I have unpacked shipments from farms where opening the bag almost took my eyebrows off, from the ammonia. Those fish were QTed, and usually made it through the 2 week period. It is astonishing to see, but it also shows what happens behind the scenes if your fish came from a shipment delayed for a few days by air freight..

If you want to set up a tank in advance, with plants and an established filter (or just plants to carry bacteria to seed the filter), with very low stocking, you can do it with no harm to the fish. The fishless cycle is a nice chemistry experiment to teach you about an important part of fishkeeping, , but proceeding slowly or running your new filter on an established tank work as well, and as humanely.
What would be causing you to have only ammonium? A really low pH? Or because youā€™re adding in a detoxifier that converts the ammonia to ammonium?

Either way, I know lower water pH causes more ammonia to convert to the ammonium form but I donā€™t think that means thereā€™s zero ammonia present. And if using a detoxifier there would be no way to know for sure that the amount of detoxifier youā€™re adding is sufficient to neutralize the amount of ammonia in your tank. So itā€™s possible that the cycling could be done without stress to the fish but thereā€™s no guarantee so youā€™re always taking that risk. Risking other creaturesā€™ well-being is what led me to say itā€™s irresponsible. An absolute for me but obviously still just an opinion.
 
What would be causing you to have only ammonium? A really low pH? Or because youā€™re adding in a detoxifier that converts the ammonia to ammonium?

Either way, I know lower water pH causes more ammonia to convert to the ammonium form but I donā€™t think that means thereā€™s zero ammonia present. And if using a detoxifier there would be no way to know for sure that the amount of detoxifier youā€™re adding is sufficient to neutralize the amount of ammonia in your tank. So itā€™s possible that the cycling could be done without stress to the fish but thereā€™s no guarantee so youā€™re always taking that risk. Risking other creaturesā€™ well-being is what led me to say itā€™s irresponsible. An absolute for me but obviously still just an opinion.
There are many fishkeeping processes that put fish at risk. To see if how I work is negative, I look at fish breeding and longevity - especially longevity. It is absolutely easy to do a fish in cycle with no longterm effects on the fish. I've had fish for a long time, and have been able to have some for long lifespans.

Beginners often make patience related errors that kill fish. The approach common before the cycle was discussed was live plants and the building of the tank population over many weeks. It worked very well. I've noticed the fishless cycle becoming popular over maybe ten years, and it is useful for teaching patience, and that the tank is more than a box of fish. I've also noticed a gradual collapse in the social side of the hobby - we talk here but probably will never meet. Even an introvert like me used to be able to drop by a club and ask someone to cycle a filter or media for me. I've cycled dozens of filters for people, in healthy tanks. That kind of cooperation is falling away as our society changes. So we look for lone wolf solutions like ammonia cycles.

I have had very soft and acid water at my last 2 homes, which suits both my choice of fish and me very well. I never overcrowd and that puts me off the edge of the mainstream hobby for sure. I have the advantage of experience too - I can tell you if there are ammonia problems from watching the fish, and I don't miss regular, clockwork water changes. With all my filters having lost a lot of bacteria in my long cold move, I'll double my water changes for a few weeks, and bring it all around.
 
There are many fishkeeping processes that put fish at risk. To see if how I work is negative, I look at fish breeding and longevity - especially longevity. It is absolutely easy to do a fish in cycle with no longterm effects on the fish. I've had fish for a long time, and have been able to have some for long lifespans.

Beginners often make patience related errors that kill fish. The approach common before the cycle was discussed was live plants and the building of the tank population over many weeks. It worked very well. I've noticed the fishless cycle becoming popular over maybe ten years, and it is useful for teaching patience, and that the tank is more than a box of fish. I've also noticed a gradual collapse in the social side of the hobby - we talk here but probably will never meet. Even an introvert like me used to be able to drop by a club and ask someone to cycle a filter or media for me. I've cycled dozens of filters for people, in healthy tanks. That kind of cooperation is falling away as our society changes. So we look for lone wolf solutions like ammonia cycles.

I have had very soft and acid water at my last 2 homes, which suits both my choice of fish and me very well. I never overcrowd and that puts me off the edge of the mainstream hobby for sure. I have the advantage of experience too - I can tell you if there are ammonia problems from watching the fish, and I don't miss regular, clockwork water changes. With all my filters having lost a lot of bacteria in my long cold move, I'll double my water changes for a few weeks, and bring it all around.
I don't count putting a tank back together after a move in the same category as fish-in cycling. When I say fish-in cycling I mean intentionally putting fish in a tank without any established filter media and letting the fish marinate in ammonia and nitrite for weeks while the beneficial bacteria develop.

You have to realize that while fish-in cycling may be absolutely easy for you to do in a skilled way, it certainly is not for the majority of people. If you've gotten to the point where you can do it without any ammonia or nitrite showing up in the water at all during the process that's great. However I would have to assume that in acquiring this skill there had to be some point where you were less than perfect with it and fish would have to have suffered during that time. So even in this case fish would have been harmed in the process (albeit in the past).
 
However I would have to assume that in acquiring this skill there had to be some point where you were less than perfect with it and fish would have to have suffered during that time. So even in this case fish would have been harmed in the process (albeit in the past).
I hope we aren't boring people who wander by and read this. Absolutes are for religions, and I doubt there are absolutes with ... ammonia. I don't think exposure is as toxic as we fear it is. It isn't black and white, or absolute. Ammonia kills fish. But it also gets blamed for the deaths of a lot of "new" fish that were already dying because of poor farming practices. We no longer talk much about teaching disease identification to newcomers, and at one time, that was a primary focus. When you bought an aquarium years ago, it almost always came with a cheap little disease identification book, and as a kid, I studied those things and prided myself on being able to spot trouble before I bought it. I wasn't out of step with how other people approached buying fish.

Our phones should make that so easy, but it seems no one uses them for that.

The old way of cycling, when the cycle hadn't been defined for hobbyists, was a very long build up of the population of the tank. It made going slowly necessary. I'll wager that someone like you, who cares about the welfare of the fish you keep, could have learned it more easily than learning the test kit, ammonia dosing methods. Read one sentence, and you've learned it. Water changes, light stocking, plants, and 2-3 months to bring an aquarium fully online.

To view it as keeping a poor fish in an ammonia soup while the filter comes alive is a bit of a straw man oversimplification. I haven't seen that suggested for ages. It's on par with saying you can pour ammonia into a bare tank, wait a week and add fish. The debate both ways isn't that simple.

There were awful practices in the earlier hobby (and if the aquarium hobby survives, imagine what things will be discovered about what we do now). I was taught the balanced aquarium myth - no water changes and old water as a thing with almost magical properties. I'm really glad we got past that one. I do have the benefit of experience, but the method I use is easy.
It's also incredibly hard, because we all want instant results. You have to look at a tank as a garden where flowers take their own time to grow and bloom. We all want to buy trays of annual flowers every year and make it instantly pretty.

Have I crashed tanks? Yes. I killed a beautiful pair of sailfin mollies about 5 years before I first read of the cycle, because I set up a brand new tank and rushed it. It was a cocky mistake, and a costly one for those fish. I learned from it.

Since we're talking absolutes we need heretics. I already said I don't see ammonia as quite the level of danger it's presented as. When I start a new tank and don't have a bio-filter prepared, I treat the tank as unfiltered. The time you spend reading test tubes and charts, I use to change water. I don't own any test kits except for GH and KH ones, and I think a pH one somewhere. I know my tap has no problem with ammonia and nitrites/nitrates, and I assume a neglected tank will. So I regularly change water. For me, that's easy, but there are no absolutes and I know some people on the forum have polluted tapwater, especially in rural, heavy duty farming areas. You work with what you have.

We're probably way closer in ideas than we first thought. My fish are not disposable, and I am not a terrible fish consumer. I have a sensitive species here I have bred generation after generation for 30 years, and I have started a few new tanks for them over that time. I expect you have projects and tanks that also have stories. I'm wordy, but if I have learned one thing in life it's that answers without backup information are worthless. If you don't share how and why, it's no use having an opinion. I hope you don't mind me going on like this! I don't want to change your approach. I just disagree with the absolute in what you wrote.
 
To me, the only absolutes are:
1. I am choosing to confine living things in a glass box. The least I can do is keep them happy. Ideally, they should be so happy that they don't mind being confined in a glass box.
2. If I'm not having fun, I'm probably doing it wrong.
 
The only absolute is no absolute.

For example, I think heaters may not be as strictly necessary as we think (in most cases). temps are quite a bit lower in tropical areas than one might expect.
EVERY topic in the hobby and in general is nuanced, black and white doesn't exist anywhere but in the fiction section of a library.
 
There are A TON of opinions about fish keeping. But there are some ABSOLUTES. Here are my absolutes, put yours down bellow.
1. Bettas need a minimum of 2.5 gallons any less is cruel and unusual. They also need filters and heaters and lots of plants.
2. Live plants trump fake plants 100% of the time
3. If you plan on keeping a beta sorority you need to raise them together and keep them in more than 35 gallons.
4. Water parameters matter!!!!! Donā€™t keep fish that donā€™t match your water
5. Donā€™t for the love of god keep goldfish in a bowl
6. Heaters are 100% necessary
7. One male betta per tank
8. Angels need 50 gallons. (I sadly can never keep them)
9. Donā€™t trust what the pet store employee says 99.9999999999% of the time

What are yours?
I have 4 betta's in a 5 gallon right now and they are perfectly happy. They were not raised together. But the 5 gallon is the isolation aquarium they stay in for 2 weeks to make sure they are not sick and contagious. We have 10 betta's in our 75 gallon at the moment, and none were raised together. Again, very happy.

We have an injured betta in a 1 gallon, been trying to talk the wife into letting me get her a 5 gallon, but it has a heater, filter and live plant, well dying live plant.
 
There are A TON of opinions about fish keeping. But there are some ABSOLUTES. Here are my absolutes, put yours down bellow.
1. Bettas need a minimum of 2.5 gallons any less is cruel and unusual. They also need filters and heaters and lots of plants.
2. Live plants trump fake plants 100% of the time
3. If you plan on keeping a beta sorority you need to raise them together and keep them in more than 35 gallons.
4. Water parameters matter!!!!! Donā€™t keep fish that donā€™t match your water
5. Donā€™t for the love of god keep goldfish in a bowl
6. Heaters are 100% necessary
7. One male betta per tank
8. Angels need 50 gallons. (I sadly can never keep them)
9. Donā€™t trust what the pet store employee says 99.9999999999% of the time

What are yours?
Iā€™m going to have to say that there are no absolutes in fishkeeping, but that doesnā€™t mean that there arenā€™t underlying principles for maintaining aquariums and basic requirements about specific species of fish that need to be understood in order to be successful. I can think of examples to refute all 9 of the absolutes that you list (well, maybe not the goldfish in a bowl- unless itā€™s a VERY big bowl) but I think all 9 are good guidelines for beginners.
 
#6 disagree
Where I live it's 80-85 degrees year round
Who needs a heater
 
#6 disagree
Where I live it's 80-85 degrees year round
Who needs a heater
I would love to live there... I like the warmth BUT I mostly like temps in the 70s
 
Talking about debunking absolutes, I just came upon a website which has information that I find very thought-provoking. Some of the more controversial claims being about water parameters: the relative unimportance of gh, kh and ph vis-a-vis filtration (particularly regarding soft water fish); how maintaining consistency (even with temperature) is an over-obsession and unjustified in the hobby; there are even some unorthodox views concerning stocking (I found those about goldfish particularly interesting). Just thought Iā€™d shareā€¦.

 
Last edited:
I honestly think there should be a legal minimum for healthy adult bettas at 2.5 gallons in homes (and maybe 0.5 gallons in stores), but 1 gallon might be a more realistic start. Also they would have to still be allowed in cups during transportation.
I also think that if a young child is keeping a fish, the parents should at least monitor the fish to make sure they are not starving or overfed.
I also think that bettas should not be kept in bowls not only because they are too small for bettas, but also because if you have a cat the cat could knock it over...
 
Talking about debunking absolutes, I just came upon a website which has information that I find very thought-provoking. Some of the more controversial claims being about water parameters: the relative unimportance of gh, kh and ph vis-a-vis filtration (particularly regarding soft water fish); how maintaining consistency (even with temperature) is an over-obsession and unjustified in the hobby; there are even some unorthodox views concerning stocking (I found those about goldfish particularly interesting). Just thought Iā€™d shareā€¦.

I took a look at the sections you mentioned on water, and there is a bit of mulm in that site. Broad statements lacking nuance are generally weak because they want to be too strong. Over-generalization is the curse of fishkeeping. I agree with a lot too, but I suspect he is only going on about easy to keep fish in general.
If he were to breed fish, he might debunk himself a little.
 
I took a look at the sections you mentioned on water, and there is a bit of mulm in that site. Broad statements lacking nuance are generally weak because they want to be too strong. Over-generalization is the curse of fishkeeping. I agree with a lot too, but I suspect he is only going on about easy to keep fish in general.
If he were to breed fish, he might debunk himself a little.
There are several hyper links where he goes into more detail about various topics. He does qualify some of the more general statements, for example, pointing out specific requirements for eggs and fry of certain species. I havenā€™t read through everything yet, but Iā€™m very much intrigued.
 

Most reactions

trending

Staff online

Back
Top