Fish Keep Dying

[jpeterson]

My setup

Firstly, I would like to tell you my set up and how I set it up so that if I have done something wrong during setting up the tank it may take you a step further to the problem cause. I bought the tank 2 weeks ago from 'Pets at Home', and is 48 litres (10.5 imperial gallons, 12.6 US gallons). I got a 'Stingray Elite 10' filter and a 'Interpet' heater with the tank. I bough 4kg of gravel which I washed with boiling water. I also bought some decoration such as some Fern and other artificial plants, which I also washed with boiling water. I then fitted the heater on the back of the tank on a slant and set it to 78F (25.5C, then placed the heater beside it on the back of the tank. I then put the gravel on the bottom if the tank and placed the decoration where I wanted it. I then topped the tank up with luke-warm water leaving about 2 inch at the top. I then added the correct amount of 'Tapsafe' to remove the harmful things from the tap water, then turned it all on. I decided to life the filter outlet out of the water so air go into the tank. I added the correct amount of 'Filter start' to the water every 2 days as instructed on the bottle. I left the tank to settle for 7 days. I then went and purchased 5 Rainbow fish. I introduced the fish to the tank slowly. Leaving them floating on the top of the water for 15 mins, putting some of our aquarium water into the bang and retying it leaving the fish for a further 15 mins before releasing them into the tank. We left the lights off for around 1 and a half hours to let the fish calm down.

The problem

After a few hours of the fish being in the tank they started to become very weak. Their gills went red and they could no longer fight the current of the water. They then lay on the bottom still alive but unable to move apart from the current taking them around the tank.

My thoughts

I though it was maybe ammonia, then I though "How could it be?" the fish haven't been in the tank long enough to produce that much waste to cause ammonia. I then though maybe there was not enough oxygen in the tank for them however, they were not breathing heavily. Then I saw something on the internet called 'New tank syndrome', I think that this is maybe the cause to my fish dying. What do you think, and how can I treat this?

 

[White Whale]

Did you stick your hand in the water? How warm is it? If it's anything close to 'feeling like nothing', then you have fish soup. Remove the heater. The only other thing I can think of is that your water source may be very hard.

 

[jpeterson]

I put my hand in the water and it feels just a little cooler then my hand.

 

[White Whale]

Run the filter one more time for a week - without the heater. Then see what happens with ONE fish - a small tetra or single hardy fish.

 

[jpeterson]

Here is a though I have had. What if I empty half of my tank and get some of my friends water from his established tank and fill mine up with it. I would clean his filter into my tank to get good bacteria into the tank. Then I could put 2-3 gold fish in the tank for a month or so making the tank aged enough to put some Rainbow fish in and see what happens? Also do I need to add any aquarium salt to the tank? I have heard its good for them.

 

[White Whale]

That's even better. I didn't know you had access to a cycled filter with cycled water. Just use one fish to help cycle the tank. But don't use goldfish.

 

[jpeterson]

What fish should I use? I heard goldfish were god as they adjust very well to water and can live in the heated water if they have been kept indoors, that's why I was going to use a gold fish or two.

 

[White Whale]

They dirty up the tank real fast. You would mix in a goldfish with rainbows?

 

[GuppyGoddess]

What fish should I use? I heard goldfish were god as they adjust very well to water and can live in the heated water if they have been kept indoors, that's why I was going to use a gold fish or two.

Small goldfish (like feeder fish) tend to be yuck - filled with parasites, etc.

Best thing to do is cycle the tank first or get a few danios to cycle the tank. 12.6 gallons is pretty small. My largest tank is 10 gallons and it only has one fish in it (a betta).

 

[jpeterson]

The tank should fit in around 58cm of fish. I only want a few fish in so 12.6 gallons was fine for me. The problem I have is every tropical fish I have put in has died! I have put rainbow fish in, catfish and neons they have all died. I need something that will cycle the tank and not die!

They dirty up the tank real fast. You would mix in a goldfish with rainbows?

There is nothing in the tank at present. I would put the goldfish in for a few weeks then remove them and add the rainbow fish. I was hoping the goldfish would cycle the tank good enough to put the rainbow fish in without dying!

 

[jpeterson]

Any ideas of what type of fish I should put in to start the cycle?

 

[waterdrop]

Hi jpeterson and Welcome to the TFF beginners section!

I'm sorry but I respectfully disagree with some of the above advice. I feel you have two problems, one major and one minor. Your major problem is that you haven't been pointed to good information to help you learn how an aquarium works, the basics! Your minor problem may have to do with the little stingray filter. We have had a number of members have problems with those, either having to modify the media contents or replace the filters outright with a better filter.

I feel that it is much, much more valuable to go through a process as a beginner to learn about a fundamental thing of the hobby called the "biofilter" and the "Nitrogen Cycle" that it helps carry out. Doing this via a "Fishless Cycle" is a really great learning tool that will help you throughout your hobby career and although it takes patience, its about the right timing for both getting your tank "cycled" and for learning about the nitrogen cycle and tank startup and about good stocking plans for compatible fish.

A Fish-In Cycle is also a legitimate way of cycling a tank but it carries the risk of permanent damage to the fish and can also turn out to be more difficult and time consuming in terms of water changes, with less feedback from test results with which to learn and understand.

My feeling is that a good first "homework assignment" for you would be to read the "Nitrogen Cycle", "Fishless Cycle" and "Fish-In Cycle" articles in our Beginners Resource Center, which you should find at the top of our "Your New Freshwater Tank" subforum of TFF. These will give you a good basis for further questions. A tank without a working biofilter is really not a place a fish wants to find when it comes out of the bag.

One of the problems with the StingRay filters is that they sometimes have enough Zeolite in their zeolite/carbon section that the ammonia in a small tank will all be absorbed and there will be no possibility of the beneficial bacteria developing (during the cycling process you're going to be reading about.) Often our members remove the zeolite and carbon and replace it with a sponge that they fashion. The other problem is more serious and is that some members have found that the stingray design simply "leaks" water around its media without it being forced to be filtered. Many of these members have opted to replace the filter with a small Fluval internal, one of the ones often recommended here.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[jpeterson]

Hi jpeterson and Welcome to the TFF beginners section!

I'm sorry but I respectfully disagree with some of the above advice. I feel you have two problems, one major and one minor. Your major problem is that you haven't been pointed to good information to help you learn how an aquarium works, the basics! Your minor problem may have to do with the little stingray filter. We have had a number of members have problems with those, either having to modify the media contents or replace the filters outright with a better filter.

I feel that it is much, much more valuable to go through a process as a beginner to learn about a fundamental thing of the hobby called the "biofilter" and the "Nitrogen Cycle" that it helps carry out. Doing this via a "Fishless Cycle" is a really great learning tool that will help you throughout your hobby career and although it takes patience, its about the right timing for both getting your tank "cycled" and for learning about the nitrogen cycle and tank startup and about good stocking plans for compatible fish.

A Fish-In Cycle is also a legitimate way of cycling a tank but it carries the risk of permanent damage to the fish and can also turn out to be more difficult and time consuming in terms of water changes, with less feedback from test results with which to learn and understand.

My feeling is that a good first "homework assignment" for you would be to read the "Nitrogen Cycle", "Fishless Cycle" and "Fish-In Cycle" articles in our Beginners Resource Center, which you should find at the top of our "Your New Freshwater Tank" subforum of TFF. These will give you a good basis for further questions. A tank without a working biofilter is really not a place a fish wants to find when it comes out of the bag.

One of the problems with the StingRay filters is that they sometimes have enough Zeolite in their zeolite/carbon section that the ammonia in a small tank will all be absorbed and there will be no possibility of the beneficial bacteria developing (during the cycling process you're going to be reading about.) Often our members remove the zeolite and carbon and replace it with a sponge that they fashion. The other problem is more serious and is that some members have found that the stingray design simply "leaks" water around its media without it being forced to be filtered. Many of these members have opted to replace the filter with a small Fluval internal, one of the ones often recommended here.

~~waterdrop~~

I do have a fluval 1 filter which has been used in an established tank. Would it be better to have that in the tank rather then the Stingray?

 

[Assaye]

Waterdrop is spot on with the long term problems. You need to know the ins and outs of cycling and be able to quote the information in your sleep before you're ready to prepare your tank for fish. The one thing I will say is that the zeolite shouldn't be a problem in the short-term as in theory the bacteria get first dibs on the water (and thus ammonia) as they are before the zeolite in the water flow. However, it is certainly easier to remove the stuff and crack on with a traditional cycle. I would also strongly suggest a fishless cycle - fewer water changes for you, safer for the fish.

Do not use goldfish if you want to fish-in cycle - they are no less worthy of life and health than other animals and should not be used as a cheap and/or easy cycling method. They are also notorious for harbouring parasites and disease and these problems along with their waste production will be exacerbated in a heated tank. Whatever fish you get - goldfish or rainbows - you need to either perform a complete fishless cycle or a very carefully controlled fish-in cycle. If you feel you need to fish-in cycle make sure you have a reputable liquid test kit for at least ammonia and nitrite and be prepared for twice daily water tests and water changes as needed (i.e. any time there is the tiniest amount of ammonia or nitrite). Also use a hardy fish that you would like to keep in the tank - perhaps harlequin rasboras, black neon tetras or platys? Danios are often suggested but I don't feel that a 48 litre tank is truly big enough for them.

Stocking - 48 litres is no way OK for 58 cm of fish. Even the P@H 1 cm per litre policy is less than this, and their policy is twice what we would generally recommend for a tank. We work on the 1 inch per gallon rule, which is approx 2 cm per 4.5 litres. This is a rough guide and experienced fishkeepers will often ignore it, but it is a very good place to start. Fish need space to develop territories, get space away from other fish, hide and generally co-exist in a peaceful and stress free manner. I very much doubt a small filter like the Stingray or Fluval mini (if that is what it is) could cope with such a high bio-load.

As for why your rainbows died so fast - have you tested your water? It isn't necessarily ammonia from the fish but there could still be ammonia in the water, either from your tap water or from the water conditioner you used. The latter is as simple as changing brand to one that explicity states it "removes ammonia associated with chloramines". The former will require a fishless cycle or a move to bottled/RO water to sort. The latter isn't a great option as it's both expensive and requires a lot of tinkering to get the right balance of minerals and such in the water.

If you have perfect water, I would suggest that you either didn't acclimatise them enough or they were too weak to endure the trip from the shop and into a new tank. Either could be the case. The P@H advice for adjusting new fish to the tank (the method you used) is very basic and only suitable when the water at the store and your home water are very similar in terms of pH and hardness. Even a small difference means a lot to the fish and requires the owner to take longer over the process - more stages of adding small amounts of water to the bag, etc.

If it is the latter - that is the fault of P@H and/or their supplier.

Please note - much of this advice contradicts P@H advice and policy. I know, I worked there. This is what we feel is best for the fish as it reduces the risk of ammonia poisoning and here we can tailor advice to people instead of the P@H one-size-fits-all policy. We have access to a lot of very up-to-date information and frankly, P@H (like most pet stores) is way behind when it comes to fishkeeping. We now know enough about how nitrifying bacteria work and how ammonia and nitrite affect fish to give you really good information, information that P@H are highly unlikely to give you or even encourage their employees to be aware of.

 

[waterdrop]

Well jpeterson, maybe we should discuss it some more before we decide on the right kind of change.

Assaye, I didn't really express myself well. I don't have any problem with the technique of cleaning out the traces of ammonia with a zeolite resin that's after the biomedia in the water path - the theory of the technique is ok. What I worry about is that people have reported the stingray to be so bad at preventing pass-through that it raises my worry that if a stingray comes with fresh zeolite that happens to be a strong-enough resin, it could effectively wipe all the ammonia out of the tank (a small tank as in this case) while the biomedia was experiencing a low exposure to needed levels of oxygen and ammonia because of pass-through (water able to get past the media without having to go through it.)

I have not owned a stingray though and am basing my thoughts on cases I've read here on TFF. I can't remember now but maybe you've run one of these Assaye? It could be that I've just been erroneously given too negative an impression about their performance.

~~waterdrop~~