Fish are dying

FishForums.net Pet of the Month
🐶 POTM Poll is Open! 🦎 Click here to Vote! 🐰
Well....

If we went.by that standard, then how many fish are wild caught vs farm bred? Do we then take into consideration water chemistry and such for the farm they were hatched from? Or do.we look to the wild where they never knew?

This hobby is fraught with overthinking.
 
Well....

If we went.by that standard, then how many fish are wild caught vs farm bred? Do we then take into consideration water chemistry and such for the farm they were hatched from? Or do.we look to the wild where they never knew?

This hobby is fraught with overthinking.
I'm not sure it matters too much about the water they were bred in, its about the water and surroundings they have spent millions of years in, developing as a species.
I'm not disputing that the majority of the fish available to us in the hobby can be kept at a wide range of values, and its not as if we can match our tap water to the river system for where our fish are found. But, there is a distinction between soft water and hard water fish and how their biological make-up differs by nature. Therefore, if you have hard water coming out of your tap, its better to keep hard water fish, otherwise soften the water.

Soft/hard water isn't where the 'overthinking' ends I'm afraid.
Some fish are gregarious by nature, and do better to be kept in groups of 6+, and if they are not, then they become aggressive and you end up with a problem. Some fish are bottom feeders by nature and so require a sand substrate, some require well oxygenated water by nature, and so are better at lower temps with a faster flow... And much much more

Personally, I enjoy the over-thinking, I've learned a lot about fish from doing the research
 
Well....

If we went.by that standard, then how many fish are wild caught vs farm bred? Do we then take into consideration water chemistry and such for the farm they were hatched from? Or do.we look to the wild where they never knew?

This hobby is fraught with overthinking.

I'm torn. I kinda love your attitude towards fishkeeping, and agree with a lot of points, and that often, we overthink things, or get too obsessive about rule following, and risk taking a lot of fun out of the hobby, or ruining it for ourselves and perhaps our fish. I really do value your input on the forum! You have a lot to contribute, I really mean that, I enjoy your posts and find them helpful.

I'm also still too new to the hobby myself to really have a firm opinion, so I'm sitting on this here fence, thank you very much! :D

On the other hand, the scientist side of me sees the sense in keeping fish according the habitat they evolved to live in. Now, there's often a large amount of leeway for certain parameters like pH and GH, with different species being much more adaptable than others (often because they have a large range in the wild, being found in areas with quite different water chemistry). And a lot of species like livebearers have been farmed and bred in captivity for so long, that they may have adapted more than other species may have.

But I think it's still worth knowing about and considering what your source water's GH is, and what species tend to prefer that hardness. Mollies love super hard water, and if someone keeps losing their mollies, that they tend to wither away then go belly up, finding out they have very soft water then gives them the option to look for other, soft water species, or add minerals to their water so they can try again with mollies.

Excuse the poor paraphrasing, but it's too late at night for me to go hunting for the source right now, but essentially, hardwater fish like mollies evolved to live in water with a heavy mineral content, so they pass a lot of those minerals, but get exactly what they need. Soft water fish evolved to hang on to certain minerals when they came across them, since there isn't much in the water they evolved to live in. When kept in hard water, they retain more than needed, often leading to blockages in their kidneys, leading to an early death.

I didn't know about this when I first got otocinclus, and added them to my hard, 253 ppm water aquarium. They seemed very healthy and thrived, even appeared to spawn once. But I lost them one by one, suddenly, without any other apparent cause, after a year or so. They just died off one by one. I strongly suspect blockages by being kept in harder water than they've evolved to handle.

Now one of my tanks I use rainwater mixed with my tap water to make it softer, for the remaining otos and pgymy cories. I'll get more otos for this softer water tank at some point, and it remains to be seen if this gives them a longer lifespan. Something like internal damage is impossible for us to see, so even if fish look normal, breed etc in the "wrong" water, it doesn't mean that internal damage isn't being done, you know? The fish don't have a choice about what water they're in, and like any creature, they'll do their best to survive -even if they aren't thriving.

Just my two cents! It's gotta be up to the individual aquarist whether it's worth it to them to make adjustments, or whether they want to risk it, or even if they believe it. Just personally, I think at least knowing what the species you're keeping evolved to live in, and trying to replicate that as best as possible, is just good animal husbandry, and might save some heartache down the line.

Scratch being too lazy to find the souce, Neal Monks is a pretty trusted fish authority/scientist, I certainly trust his opinions.

Quote from the article:
"So, that's why water is hard; what does that mean for the aquarium? Besides raising the pH, hardness salts affect the animals and plants in the aquarium in a number of other ways, too. For some small fish adapted to soft water conditions, the minerals in hard water are thought to cause blockages in some of the organs. Dissection of neon and cardinal tetras has revealed damaged kidneys in specimens kept in hard water aquaria. That said, the majority of soft water fish generally do tolerably well in hard water aquaria. The problem doesn't tend to be that the fish die prematurely, though some do, but rather that it becomes impossible to get the fish to spawn or to raise the fry. Some species simply won't breed at all in hard water, while others, like Kribensis, will spawn, but the resulting fry invariably show a preponderance of a single sex within the brood."
 
Most of this thread is irrelevant.

Can you post some more pictures that clearly show the fish?

How long has the tank been set up for?
Why is the water in the pictures a milky cloudy colour?

What sort of filter do you have?
How often and how do you clean the filter?
What is the ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH in numbers?

How often do you do water changes and how much do you change?
Do you gravel clean the substrate when you do a water change?
Do you dechlorinate the new water before adding it to the tank?
Do you have specific buckets for the fish tanks or do you use any bucket from around the house?

Did you do a water change or clean anything the day before this started?
Did you add anything to the tank in the 2 weeks before this started?

--------------------
The new neons probably introduced something into the tank but I have concerns about the milky cloudy water too.

What symptoms did the new fish have?
What symptoms are the current fish showing?
 
Most of this thread is irrelevant.

Can you post some more pictures that clearly show the fish?

How long has the tank been set up for?
Why is the water in the pictures a milky cloudy colour?

What sort of filter do you have?
How often and how do you clean the filter?
What is the ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH in numbers?

How often do you do water changes and how much do you change?
Do you gravel clean the substrate when you do a water change?
Do you dechlorinate the new water before adding it to the tank?
Do you have specific buckets for the fish tanks or do you use any bucket from around the house?

Did you do a water change or clean anything the day before this started?
Did you add anything to the tank in the 2 weeks before this started?

--------------------
The new neons probably introduced something into the tank but I have concerns about the milky cloudy water too.

What symptoms did the new fish have?
What symptoms are the current fish showing?
Tank has been set for 6 months, the water is milky because i treated it for bacteria and parasites. I have a bio, nitrate, and carbon filter. I rinse it off every couple weeks. Ammonia, na, ni is 0. Ph is 7.3. I do water changes monthly, changing about 14 gallons. I clean the gravel before I vacuum the water out, so I get a lot of the stirred up stuff out. I use half well water(no Chlorine) and distilled water to keep the GH down. It was right in the middle of the water change. Im not sure if I added anything in the 2 weeks prior. If I did it was algaefix.
Honestly. The tetra just dropped dead, no sign of sickness. One evening they were shoaled up. The next, gone. The mollies have seemed a little lethargic the night before, when I woke up they were gone.
 
Tank has been set for 6 months, the water is milky because i treated it for bacteria and parasites. I have a bio, nitrate, and carbon filter. I rinse it off every couple weeks. Ammonia, na, ni is 0. Ph is 7.3. I do water changes monthly, changing about 14 gallons. I clean the gravel before I vacuum the water out, so I get a lot of the stirred up stuff out. I use half well water(no Chlorine) and distilled water to keep the GH down. It was right in the middle of the water change. Im not sure if I added anything in the 2 weeks prior. If I did it was algaefix.
Honestly. The tetra just dropped dead, no sign of sickness. One evening they were shoaled up. The next, gone. The mollies have seemed a little lethargic the night before, when I woke up they were gone.
Most of this thread is irrelevant.

Can you post some more pictures that clearly show the fish?

How long has the tank been set up for?
Why is the water in the pictures a milky cloudy colour?

What sort of filter do you have?
How often and how do you clean the filter?
What is the ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH in numbers?

How often do you do water changes and how much do you change?
Do you gravel clean the substrate when you do a water change?
Do you dechlorinate the new water before adding it to the tank?
Do you have specific buckets for the fish tanks or do you use any bucket from around the house?

Did you do a water change or clean anything the day before this started?
Did you add anything to the tank in the 2 weeks before this started?

--------------------
The new neons probably introduced something into the tank but I have concerns about the milky cloudy water too.

What symptoms did the new fish have?
What symptoms are the current fish showing?
No symptoms on the current fish. I completely darkened the tank and when I fed them this morning they were all on the bottom but came to feed looking good. But ?
 
I clean the gravel before I vacuum the water out, so I get a lot of the stirred up stuff out.
Do you use a gravel cleaner that sucks gunk out of the gravel while it is draining water out of the tank, or something else?
You don't want the gunk in the gravel being stirred up and spreading through the tank because it contains bad bacteria, protozoa and other harmful organisms.

---------------------
I do water changes monthly, changing about 14 gallons.
I would do water changes more often, at least every 2 weeks, or weekly if you can.

---------------------
Honestly. The tetra just dropped dead, no sign of sickness. One evening they were shoaled up. The next, gone. The mollies have seemed a little lethargic the night before, when I woke up they were gone.
It's possibly poisoning from the algaefix and anything else you add to the tank. There might even be something in the well water.
Have you had the well water tested for anything and everything to make sure it's free of chemicals and pollutants?

All chemicals harm fish to some degree, algicides, medications, plant fertilisers, they all have some side effects. Fortunately most only cause minor side effects and are only used occasionally at low doses so they don't kill the fish, but if you use them regularly or start mixing things, you can poison the fish.

Tetras are sensitive to chemicals and if you are adding chemicals on a regular basis but not doing big water changes before adding more chemicals, there could be a build up of chemicals in the water and that has killed the fish.

Clear photos of the fish would help rule out most diseases.

---------------------
I would stop adding things and do a 75% water change and gravel clean the substrate every day for a week. Then see how they go.

Try to post some clear pictures of the fish and just monitor them over the next few weeks. And if any more fish die, I want pictures of them too (in water if possible).
 
No symptoms on the current fish. I completely darkened the tank and when I fed them this morning they were all on the bottom but came to feed looking good. But ?
TURNING LIGHTS ON AND OFF
Stress from tank lights coming on when the room is dark can be an issue. Fish don't have eyelids and don't tolerate going from complete dark to bright light (or vice versa) instantly.

In the morning open the curtains or turn the room light on at least 30 minutes (or more) before turning the tank light on. This will reduce the stress on the fish and they won't go from a dark tank to a bright tank instantly.

At night turn the room light on and then turn the tank light off. Wait at least 30 minutes (or more) before turning the room light out. This allows the fish to settle down for the night instead of going from a brightly lit tank to complete darkness instantly.

Try to have the lights on at the same time each day.

---------------------
Let the fish wake up and have the lights on for a few hours before you feed the fish. This gives them time to wake up, move around and do things, then later on they can get fed.
 
Do you use a gravel cleaner that sucks gunk out of the gravel while it is draining water out of the tank, or something else?
You don't want the gunk in the gravel being stirred up and spreading through the tank because it contains bad bacteria, protozoa and other harmful organisms.

---------------------

I would do water changes more often, at least every 2 weeks, or weekly if you can.

---------------------

It's possibly poisoning from the algaefix and anything else you add to the tank. There might even be something in the well water.
Have you had the well water tested for anything and everything to make sure it's free of chemicals and pollutants?

All chemicals harm fish to some degree, algicides, medications, plant fertilisers, they all have some side effects. Fortunately most only cause minor side effects and are only used occasionally at low doses so they don't kill the fish, but if you use them regularly or start mixing things, you can poison the fish.

Tetras are sensitive to chemicals and if you are adding chemicals on a regular basis but not doing big water changes before adding more chemicals, there could be a build up of chemicals in the water and that has killed the fish.

Clear photos of the fish would help rule out most diseases.

---------------------
I would stop adding things and do a 75% water change and gravel clean the substrate every day for a week. Then see how they go.

Try to post some clear pictures of the fish and just monitor them over the next few weeks. And if any more fish die, I want pictures of them too (in water if possible).
?
 
Algaefix was used? I missed that part.

That is more than likely what did it if that is the case. I don't know why they sell that crap. Every time I have seen it used, even in smaller doses than recommended, it kills everything in the tank, including the fish. I, personally, never would use it. Seen too many friends over the years lose their fish with it. Even a guy a work asked me once how I was able to get such good, lush tanks. He said every time he has a tank, it grows algae, and he put that stuff in for it, and the fish all died. I told him he just answered his own question...in part.
 
Most of this thread is irrelevant.
I dunno sir. There is maybe some wisdom in here beyond the original posters request that may come in useful down the road.........

As conversations often wander......ya just follow the yellow brick road....ya dig.
 
I'm torn. I kinda love your attitude towards fishkeeping, and agree with a lot of points, and that often, we overthink things, or get too obsessive about rule following, and risk taking a lot of fun out of the hobby, or ruining it for ourselves and perhaps our fish. I really do value your input on the forum! You have a lot to contribute, I really mean that, I enjoy your posts and find them helpful.

I'm also still too new to the hobby myself to really have a firm opinion, so I'm sitting on this here fence, thank you very much! :D

On the other hand, the scientist side of me sees the sense in keeping fish according the habitat they evolved to live in. Now, there's often a large amount of leeway for certain parameters like pH and GH, with different species being much more adaptable than others (often because they have a large range in the wild, being found in areas with quite different water chemistry). And a lot of species like livebearers have been farmed and bred in captivity for so long, that they may have adapted more than other species may have.

But I think it's still worth knowing about and considering what your source water's GH is, and what species tend to prefer that hardness. Mollies love super hard water, and if someone keeps losing their mollies, that they tend to wither away then go belly up, finding out they have very soft water then gives them the option to look for other, soft water species, or add minerals to their water so they can try again with mollies.

Excuse the poor paraphrasing, but it's too late at night for me to go hunting for the source right now, but essentially, hardwater fish like mollies evolved to live in water with a heavy mineral content, so they pass a lot of those minerals, but get exactly what they need. Soft water fish evolved to hang on to certain minerals when they came across them, since there isn't much in the water they evolved to live in. When kept in hard water, they retain more than needed, often leading to blockages in their kidneys, leading to an early death.

I didn't know about this when I first got otocinclus, and added them to my hard, 253 ppm water aquarium. They seemed very healthy and thrived, even appeared to spawn once. But I lost them one by one, suddenly, without any other apparent cause, after a year or so. They just died off one by one. I strongly suspect blockages by being kept in harder water than they've evolved to handle.

Now one of my tanks I use rainwater mixed with my tap water to make it softer, for the remaining otos and pgymy cories. I'll get more otos for this softer water tank at some point, and it remains to be seen if this gives them a longer lifespan. Something like internal damage is impossible for us to see, so even if fish look normal, breed etc in the "wrong" water, it doesn't mean that internal damage isn't being done, you know? The fish don't have a choice about what water they're in, and like any creature, they'll do their best to survive -even if they aren't thriving.

Just my two cents! It's gotta be up to the individual aquarist whether it's worth it to them to make adjustments, or whether they want to risk it, or even if they believe it. Just personally, I think at least knowing what the species you're keeping evolved to live in, and trying to replicate that as best as possible, is just good animal husbandry, and might save some heartache down the line.

Scratch being too lazy to find the souce, Neal Monks is a pretty trusted fish authority/scientist, I certainly trust his opinions.

Quote from the article:
"So, that's why water is hard; what does that mean for the aquarium? Besides raising the pH, hardness salts affect the animals and plants in the aquarium in a number of other ways, too. For some small fish adapted to soft water conditions, the minerals in hard water are thought to cause blockages in some of the organs. Dissection of neon and cardinal tetras has revealed damaged kidneys in specimens kept in hard water aquaria. That said, the majority of soft water fish generally do tolerably well in hard water aquaria. The problem doesn't tend to be that the fish die prematurely, though some do, but rather that it becomes impossible to get the fish to spawn or to raise the fry. Some species simply won't breed at all in hard water, while others, like Kribensis, will spawn, but the resulting fry invariably show a preponderance of a single sex within the brood."

While there is something to recreating a habitat, ultimately, most fish sold into this hobby are farmed on the fresh side. Marine, this is where it is more crucial to follow closely, due to these fish being.usually live caught in the wild. Freshwater fish can be more forgiving.

If you read that far into the science of it, there is nothing wrong with it. There is benefit to it. However, this is where most peoples eyes will glaze over, and they will lose interest. This is why I say there tends to be a bit of overthinking to the hobby. Experienced keepers tend to be of the sort that will quickly dispense a ton of information on someone that is new to the hobby, and potentially cause confusion, or.worse, make someone.feel.foolish for not being an expert right out of the box. Ya never really know the mindset on the other end of the screen. So I kinda see my job here to knock down these walls and rules a bit, and keep it relaxed. Keep it simple. A gentle.nudge here and a jewel of info there will go a ton farther than an.encyclopedia of biology, chemistry and biome. A simple "hey, keep yer chin up, and tell me what you done so far, and well go with the easiest to the hardest..." Kind of deal. Colin does a really good job of this, but seemingly has a real affinity for aquaria, and knows some of the more experienced level keepers knowledge. However, he delivers it in a way as to maybe overwhelm on occasion...not saying it's a bad thing, but, to a complete newb, that much info in that short of time might make their brain drain out their ears.....haha. Especially that copy/past salt book he has. It's a trip. Should put that in a sticky and just link to it.

Hell....he could do a sticky called "Collins Corner: Aquarium Care and Maint."......or something....haha. It would be easier to drop that link than plop that big ole book of folks in every thread....hahahaha......not pickin on ya guy, but man, you sure do fill a page. Course...I get a bit carried away myself, but on the other end of the spectrum....ya know....the long winded train derailment end....haha.
 

Most reactions

trending

Staff online

Members online

Back
Top