Fin Rot?

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orangefish

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I noticed yesterday that some of my fish had jagged tails which were white at the end. I put aquarium salt and a fin rot treatment in anyway, but I was wondering if someone could tell me if this is definitely fin rot or not? Thanks

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Anyone please? it doesn't seem to be getting any better :(
 
Yes that does appear to be finrot. Some questions;

a. What is the water quality like in the tank?
b. What are you feeding the fish and how much/often?
c. Have you added any new fish to the tank in the last 2 months?
d. How often do you do water changes & clean the substrate in the tank etc?
e. How long do you leave the tank lights on per day?
f. What specific med are you using to treat the finrot with?
 
Hi Tokis_Phoenix, I think I've spoken to you before about all the problems I had in my tank that had been going on for 6 months(you thought it may have been TB?)! Well just to say I still don't think I've got that sorted!
Anyway, to answer your questions:
pH: 7.9
Ammonia: 1.0
Nitrite: 1.0
Nitrate: 5
I am feeding the fish TetraMin Tropical Flakes 1/2 times a day
I added 2 cardinal tetras and 1 dwarf cory about 1 months ago
I do 40% water change every week or 2 where I clean the substrate at the same time
I leave the tank lights on for about 4 hours a day during the week and 8 hours or so at the weekends, however they are in sunlight during the day too
I have used Interpet No.8 Anti-fungus and Finrot treatment as well as API Aquarium Salt.

A few days ago I did a complete substrate change. This was due to not being able to find a dead fish, and because the gravel was too big for my cories (their barbels were cut off). Therefore, I had to take the fish out and bag them up for a couple of hours. At the same time, I consequently did around an 80% water change (this was also important as my nitrates were and have been for quite a while very high and I have been unsuccessful at reducing them).

Thanks for the help, and I'm glad that I know it is finrot and I just hope that the treatment works now!
 
Hi Tokis_Phoenix, I think I've spoken to you before about all the problems I had in my tank that had been going on for 6 months(you thought it may have been TB?)! Well just to say I still don't think I've got that sorted!

Thats a shame! Are the fish deaths lowering in regularity though? Are you quarentining the sick fish?

Anyway, to answer your questions:
pH: 7.9
Ammonia: 1.0
Nitrite: 1.0
Nitrate: 5

Hmm you have some water quality problems with the ammonia & nitrites. Are you should the filtration is adequate for the bioload of the tank? What type/brand of filtration do you have and how many gallons is the tank in question + current stocking? Have you been using any fish meds recently which harm filter bacteria (some do)?

I am feeding the fish TetraMin Tropical Flakes 1/2 times a day

You might be underfeeding them a bit. For small fish, small but regular meals are better than large but irregular meals. Do you feed the fish like the corys anything in particular? They will need more than just the fish flakes.

I added 2 cardinal tetras and 1 dwarf cory about 1 months ago
I do 40% water change every week or 2 where I clean the substrate at the same time

Try doing a 30% water change once a week. Cleaning the substrate very regularly can help a lot when there are disease or parasite problems in the tank as it can help lower background levels of diseases/parasites.

A few days ago I did a complete substrate change. This was due to not being able to find a dead fish, and because the gravel was too big for my cories (their barbels were cut off). Therefore, I had to take the fish out and bag them up for a couple of hours. At the same time, I consequently did around an 80% water change (this was also important as my nitrates were and have been for quite a while very high and I have been unsuccessful at reducing them).

Dead fish more often than not end up being sucked into filters or tangled in dense planting. Do you have much (if any) live plants in the tank? Have you switched to a sand substrate or just a finer rounded gravel one? Changing the gravel and then doing an 80% water change while bagging the fish up for a couple of hours could have triggered the finrot (particularly if there was any bad bacteria in the substrate this could have been stirred up), especially depending on how you acclimatised the fish back to the tank.
The large water change & complete substrate changing session may have also altered the tanks PH (changes in PH can be very stressful for fish- i once accidentally killed a load of amano shrimp from a PH swing in a 5gallon tank many years ago when i removed a large peice of bogwood from the tank while doing a large water change which) . When doing water changes as large as 80% you also risk mini-cycling the tank which could be why you have ammonia/nitrite readings now.

Finrot is most commonly caused by environmental stress and is also common in new fish added to the tank. It could have been brought on by the ammonia/nitrite readings, but it also could have been caused by the large water change/fish bagging/substrate changing session you did (the water quality issues could also be linked to this). Reducing any environmental stress will help quicken the recovery rate of the fish.
How fine is the net you used to catch the fish? Aquarium water is full of bacteria but fish have protective slime coats which protect them from bad bacteria. However, rough handling or catching them with rough nets can damage the protective slime coat, leaving the fish vulnerable to bacterial infections like finrot & columnaris (one of the reasons why such infections are more common in newly purchased fish as pet shop staff are sometimes a bit rough with fish when catching them etc). If the fish have been flicking/rubbing themselves against the gravel in the tank after being irritated by the ammonia/nitrites they may have damaged their own slimecoats doing this too.
 
Thank you for all the information.
Unfortunately I have not been able to quarantine the sick fish. If you remember, I had a sick platy with a bent spine (who was the only obviously ill/lathargic fish) which I did quarantine in a 20L tank or so. However; I could tell she was not happy in the tank as she was spending even more time sat on the bottom, so I just returned her to the tank. Since I last spoke to you a few months ago, I think I've had 1 pygmy cory death/disappearance.

It's really strange because I've always had high nitrates, and practically no nitrites or ammonia (I presume this is down to the water change though). When doing the water change, I did the regular maintenance of the filter sponges i.e. squeezing them slightly in tank water and just generally getting rid of the bits on them. My filter is a Tetratec IN1000 (150-200L), and I have a 125L (33 US gallons) tank. My stocking is shown in my signature. I don't think I've used any medication apart from the Finrot one being used at the moment.

Ok, I'll feed them more often but less, and increase my water changes. I feed the cory's (I have a plec aswell) a few algae wafers every few days.

Well I did check the filter and I couldn't see a dead fish amongst the sponge (although I didn't see it in the gravel either...), and I do have quite a few plants in my tank, but I would have noticed the dead fish in the plant when I removed them while doing the substrate change I think. And unfortunately I realise now that the bagging of the fish etc. could well have stressed the fish out and subsequently caused the finrot to develop; however, I'm not sure if I may have seen early signs of the finrot (whitish tips to their some of the their fins) before the water change; although I am not 100% sure. However, the high pH of 7.9 is normal for me (my tap water is normally around 7.8ish). When putting the plants back in the water change, I also put 2 pieces of bogwood in which had been out for 1 month or so (as I was seeing if this brought the high nitrate levels down while they were out of the water).

The net I used may be a bit rough- I have a finer net which I will use in future.

How will I reduce the nitrites/ammonia as I have never had high levels like this before?! Is there anything else I can add to the water to help the fish or replace their slime coats etc.?

Thank you for all the advice!
 
Thank you for all the information.
Unfortunately I have not been able to quarantine the sick fish. If you remember, I had a sick platy with a bent spine (who was the only obviously ill/lathargic fish) which I did quarantine in a 20L tank or so. However; I could tell she was not happy in the tank as she was spending even more time sat on the bottom, so I just returned her to the tank. Since I last spoke to you a few months ago, I think I've had 1 pygmy cory death/disappearance.

How is the platy doing now?

It's really strange because I've always had high nitrates, and practically no nitrites or ammonia (I presume this is down to the water change though). When doing the water change, I did the regular maintenance of the filter sponges i.e. squeezing them slightly in tank water and just generally getting rid of the bits on them. My filter is a Tetratec IN1000 (150-200L), and I have a 125L (33 US gallons) tank. My stocking is shown in my signature. I don't think I've used any medication apart from the Finrot one being used at the moment.

Ok, I'll feed them more often but less, and increase my water changes. I feed the cory's (I have a plec aswell) a few algae wafers every few days.

2 Glowlight Danios
2 Pygmy Corys
1 Mollie
2 Swordtails
16 Harlequin Tetras
Penguin Tetras
1 Platy
1 Guppy
2 Neon Tetras
2 Cardinal Tetras
1 Plec
2 Panda Corys

Hmm your stocking has a lot of issues in terms of the numbers of fish within the individual species.

Generally speaking, for pretty much all types of shoaling fish it is recommend that you have at least 5-6individuals within a certain type. So while you have a lot of Harlequin Tetras, the danios, penguin tetras, neon tetras & cardinal tetras are well below what their species numbers should be. Corys, platys, guppys & mollies should be in groups at least 3-4 strong (with the livebearers this depends on their gender ratios though).
If you had every fish in the right minimum numbers you would have;

5-6 Glowlight Danios
5-6 Penguin tetras
5-6 Neon tetras
5-6 Cardinal tetras
and the 16 Harlequin tetras. You would also have
3-4 platys
3-4 guppys
3-4 mollies
3-4 pygmy corys
3-4 panda corys
Plus a pleco (depending on its type, it could outgrow a 33gal).

But this would obviously seriously overstock a 33gal tank. But keeping fish (particularly shoaling fish) in numbers too low can stress them out. Treating diseases quicky & successfully of any sort is all about reducing the stress levels of the fish. Though not all your fish are healthy right now, i would personally advise sorting out the stocking when you have the finrot cured as it will be beneficial to all the fish. I would personally change the stocking to something along these lines;

10 Harlequin tetras
5 Neon tetra or Cardianl tetras
5 Glowlight Danios or Penguin tetras
3-4 Guppys or Platys
3-4 Panda Corys
3-4 Pygmy Corys
1 Pleco
* Concerning the livebearers you could have either 3females or 1male 2-3females or 5males. The Mollies are the largest growing & most active growing of all the fish, so i would personally have either the platys or guppys in an all-female or small mixed gender group. The guppys would have the least bioload strain on the tank.

Or something like this :) . Whether you sort out the stocking issues now or later, it will benefit the fish a lot. Adding new fish though may risk introducing new diseases or parasites to the tank, so it might be better to do when you have a good quarentine tank set up running.

Well I did check the filter and I couldn't see a dead fish amongst the sponge (although I didn't see it in the gravel either...), and I do have quite a few plants in my tank, but I would have noticed the dead fish in the plant when I removed them while doing the substrate change I think.

If it was only a little pygmy cory then small fish like this can take as little as 24hrs to almost completely decompose, leaving nothing but tiny scull & spine behind.

And unfortunately I realise now that the bagging of the fish etc. could well have stressed the fish out and subsequently caused the finrot to develop; however, I'm not sure if I may have seen early signs of the finrot (whitish tips to their some of the their fins) before the water change; although I am not 100% sure. However, the high pH of 7.9 is normal for me (my tap water is normally around 7.8ish). When putting the plants back in the water change, I also put 2 pieces of bogwood in which had been out for 1 month or so (as I was seeing if this brought the high nitrate levels down while they were out of the water).

The net I used may be a bit rough- I have a finer net which I will use in future.

How will I reduce the nitrites/ammonia as I have never had high levels like this before?! Is there anything else I can add to the water to help the fish or replace their slime coats etc.?

Thank you for all the advice!

For the Finrot & slime coat repair there is a dechlorinator called Stress Coat by API ( http://www.aquariumpharm.com/Products/Product.aspx?ProductID=43 ) which helps heal the fishes slime coats while also dechlorinating your water, its great stuff :good: . For the ammonia/nitrite problems just do daily water changes around 15% large to lower them (if they get any worse at any point doing a 30% water change) :thumbs: .
 
Thanks. Yeah, I realised I have problems with my stocking, as I've had a lot of these fish since I was starting up (about a year ago) so I didn't really have any idea about stocking at the time, or they have been passed onto me from a friend! I did kinda want to sort it out, but because I have all these problems in my tank, I didn't want to pass it onto a fish shop or someone else's tank :/ I'm not really sure what to do :/

And I have a feeling I have that Stress Coat treatment, so I will do a 15% water change as advised tomorrow and as long as it takes until the nitrites/ammonia go down.

Just as a matter of interest, when I was cleaning/emptying the substrate the other day, I happened to notice tiny worm-like things at the bottom of my bucket. They were about 0.5cm, black, and looked very much like leeches in the way they were moving around. There were about 20 in my bucket, and there were still some in the bottom of the tank which I couldn't get out. So I know they are still in the tank. Whatever these are, do you think this could play any part in any of the problems I'm having? Thanks for you help again
 
Thanks. Yeah, I realised I have problems with my stocking, as I've had a lot of these fish since I was starting up (about a year ago) so I didn't really have any idea about stocking at the time, or they have been passed onto me from a friend! I did kinda want to sort it out, but because I have all these problems in my tank, I didn't want to pass it onto a fish shop or someone else's tank :/ I'm not really sure what to do :/

If there are any particular types of fish which you don't plan on keeping long term but appear to be totally healthy and have no been a problem type of fish at all, then i would take them back to the petshop. Its a tough moral decision but at the very least your water quality problems will be easier to deal with with less fish in the tank (which will benefit all the fish in the tank) :thumbs: .

Just as a matter of interest, when I was cleaning/emptying the substrate the other day, I happened to notice tiny worm-like things at the bottom of my bucket. They were about 0.5cm, black, and looked very much like leeches in the way they were moving around. There were about 20 in my bucket, and there were still some in the bottom of the tank which I couldn't get out. So I know they are still in the tank. Whatever these are, do you think this could play any part in any of the problems I'm having? Thanks for you help again

Did they look like this;
Planaria.jpg

?

If so they sound like Planaria worms- totally harmless little creatures which fish eat given half a chance to catch them, they're more common in tanks with gravel substrates where food can get trapped in the gravel which the worms eat :) .
 
Yeah, I might try and do that sometime. It's just difficult to tell which fish are healthy because most of them are still flicking :/

And yeah, I think that was them. It was difficult to tell as they were so small, but I couldn't visibly see a different shaped head or eyes. It literally just looked like a black line (my friend thought it was a leech?) that was moving about. Thanks again

Unfortunately I woke up this morning to find my 2 panda corys dead together :( They haven't been right since I did that water change (they had their fins down and I think they may have had fin rot)
 
Unfortunately I woke up this morning to find my 2 panda corys dead together :( They haven't been right since I did that water change (they had their fins down and I think they may have had fin rot)

Panda Corys are very sensitive to water quality so they would have been the most vulnerable ones to the water quality issues. But keep up with the small water changes & Finrot medication (making sure you top up the stuff lost from the tank during water changes) and the other fish should pull through :thumbs: . In terms of water quality sensitivity, the pygmy cories, neon tetras & cardinal tetras are the only fish considered to be quite sensitive to water quality (the others are all very robust or fairly robust) so these are the ones you should keep your eye on the most species-wise (and of course any fish which have finrot).
 
Ok thanks. Should I top up on the salt as well when I do each water change?

Touch wood, since I've done that substrate change, the pygmy cory's seem to be quite happy, and the neons and cardinals do as well. In fact, these are basically the only fish which seem alright I think! But I will keep an eye on them. The only problem is, I can't visibly see any improvements in their fins yet (I think they are still getting smaller in size, but it's hard to tell). Unfortunatley, the worst fish, my penguin tetra, is being bullied by my other penguin now so has resulted to hiding behind my filter :/ Hopefully this will give him some time to recover. I'll keep you updated though, and if I do fix the finrot, I will start to sort out my stocking! Thanks again
 
Ok thanks. Should I top up on the salt as well when I do each water change?

Touch wood, since I've done that substrate change, the pygmy cory's seem to be quite happy, and the neons and cardinals do as well. In fact, these are basically the only fish which seem alright I think! But I will keep an eye on them. The only problem is, I can't visibly see any improvements in their fins yet (I think they are still getting smaller in size, but it's hard to tell). Unfortunatley, the worst fish, my penguin tetra, is being bullied by my other penguin now so has resulted to hiding behind my filter :/ Hopefully this will give him some time to recover. I'll keep you updated though, and if I do fix the finrot, I will start to sort out my stocking! Thanks again

It might be worth treating the fish with Interpet anti internal bacteria & finrot instead of the salt & finrot medication as there are some very aggressive strains of bacterial finrot out there. Most times in the past when i've treated finrot its been bacterial and the Interpet anti internal bacteria has been very effective against it. I wouldn't worry too much about keeping the salt at high levels as long term it can put a strain on catfish like corys which come from the Amazon which there is almost no salt in their natural habitat.

Concerning the fish feeding, if you are only feeding the pleco very small algae wafers i would advise putting in one whole one for it and one broken up one for the corys once a day at night just before the tank lights are off (plecos are mostly nocturnal creatures and prefer to come out for food at night rather than the day, ensuring more of the food is eaten. They actually have quite poor eyesight and mostly maneuver their way around using their other senses :) .). Other than that, just a small pinch of fishf lakes twice a day. Keep an eye out for uneaten algae wafer to help get a feel for how much daily food your pleco needs (plus uneaten food in fish tanks can harbour columnaris) :good: .

With the penguin tetras, they're picking on each other because their numbers are too low. In low numbers peaceful tetras can become insecure & aggressive towards each other, either constantly darting about and trying to shoal, never being at peace, or picking on each other and being uncharatistically aggressive. Buying more penguin tetras will solve the problem (you would need about 3-4 to solve it) though in the midst of disease in the tank this could be risky. But on the other stress compromises fishes immune systems and fish with injuries from nipping (particularly fin nipping) are vulnerable to secondary infections like septicemia, finrot & columanris.
Personally if i was in your situation i would buy an extra 3-4 penguin tetras to help prevent the current ones succumbing to death from stress or secondary infection. Either that i would rehome the tetras back to the pet shop or to someone who already has a shoal of penguin tetras. The 3 option would be to separate the 2 tetras. On their own they will also be stressed, but probably less stressed than if they were together & fighting.

Can you get a divider net/screen for your tank? It might be a very good option if you put the sick fish in one side of the tank as well as separate the fighting tetras, ensuring at least the sick fish won't get bullied and if they die their corpses won't get eaten by healthy fish. The disease will still be present in the water on both sides but it might help reduce the transition of infection between the fishes :thumbs: .
 
Thanks. Unfortunately at the moment, I think it is unfair to buy any more fish :/ If this problem clears up however; I am probably going to rehome them and the glowlight danios. He's hiding/staying low down at the moment to stay out of that penguins way. Unusually (as I know they can be aggressive) I have never had any problems with the penguins bullying each other or any other fish before the finrot.
Well this morning, I did a 15% water change like you suggested. I then replenished the finrot medication, added StressZyme and StressCoat to the tank, and topped up the salt (I did all this before I read your post :p).
So tomorrow when I do the next 15% water change, should I change to the Interpet No.9 Anti Internal Bacteria treatment (I already have it :) ) or do I have to wait as I am already using a treatment. Thanks for the help
 
Thanks. Unfortunately at the moment, I think it is unfair to buy any more fish :/ If this problem clears up however; I am probably going to rehome them and the glowlight danios. He's hiding/staying low down at the moment to stay out of that penguins way. Unusually (as I know they can be aggressive) I have never had any problems with the penguins bullying each other or any other fish before the finrot.
Well this morning, I did a 15% water change like you suggested. I then replenished the finrot medication, added StressZyme and StressCoat to the tank, and topped up the salt (I did all this before I read your post :p).
So tomorrow when I do the next 15% water change, should I change to the Interpet No.9 Anti Internal Bacteria treatment (I already have it :) ) or do I have to wait as I am already using a treatment. Thanks for the help

You can use the interpet bacterial treatment alongside the finrot treatment at the same time (as they contain different ingredients) :good: .
 

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