Filter And Cycling Question

[cowgirluntamed]

Ok, I think I am going to do a nice little 5.5 gallon betta tank for my "office" where I am going to try to do some writing. I thought maybe having a fish in there would get me to go in there and work more....lol. Anyway, I may be able to set up the 5.5 gallon way before my 55 that I want to do, maybe, otherwise I would just "cycle" the filter in the 55 with it's cycle.
 
Now, whether I do that or whether I am able to put the sponge filter into one of my already cycled currently going tanks(I have a 10 and 20 gallon), would this actually make the 5.5 gallon cycled since the bacteria would be in the sponge? Or would the tank still have to cycle itself? And if I left the sponge filter in the 10 or the 20, how long would it take to seed it? I want to do a sand substrate with plants(probably some crypt Wendtii brown and an anubias nana, and a carpet(hopefully) of dwarf sag(and also don't know if floating plants would be good here?). I was thinking of buying some basic decorations for the tank(there was a cool warrior helmet and a roman pot or something...that the betta could go into-and I would check for sharp spots first), that I would switch out every so often as it seems that's what a lot of people do. Is this a good thing?
 
Also, the current sponge filter I have, I am not sure if it would be good for a betta. I have an Azoo Biofilter number 9 rated for 25 gallons(from drsfostersmith.com). I have used this once for a sick guppy and I'm glad I had the check valve for the flow because this thing did not have small bubbles at all and if it was up too much then it created a bunch of waves at the top! Mostly I was going to use this as a hospital filter as needed. If there are any other opinions on different sponge filters(I guess that's best for bettas?) then I'd be happy to hear them!
 
Anything else that may be helpful regarding a betta would be appreciative as well. Best foods and all that, though I know I can go to the betta page on here and get some good information which I have been looking at arleady. Lol. I've never owned a betta before and think it could be awesome. Oh, and would it be ok to have a couple of horned nerites in there for algae control? The light I plan to get for this tank is a 16inch Finnex Stingray LED for the plants. And I would also be getting a glass hood thing for it as well, so no jumping out!
 
Thanks again for any help guys!
   Kristen

 

[the_lock_man]

The issue lies in where exactly in your tank the bacteria are living, as they aren't necessarily in the filter - they can colonise lots of different surfaces.
 
In theory, if you were to move the bacteria from, say, the 20gal to the 5½gal, then, yes, the 5½gal would be cycled, but you might then have issues with the 20gal. In practice, we often advise people to move up to a third of the filter media (sponges, ceramics, etc) from a cycled filter, and replace the removed media, and you would not normally notice a problem in the established tank, as the bacteria would quickly recolonise.
 
What you shouldn't then do, though, is to assume that the new tank is instantly cycled - it could be, but you don't know. You would need to then dose ammonia to see how big a colony of bacteria you have transferred. You might find that you're fine, and you might find that you need to dose ammonia a few more times, just to boost the bacteria up a bit.
 
With your other suggestion, placing a new filter in an established tank, we don't normally recommend. Remember that the bacterial colonies only grow as large as they need to, for the amount of ammonia (and consequent nitrite) that the fish produce. In an established tank, those colonies are as big as they need to be. The bacteria don't say to themselves "ooh, look a new filter, let's go and live there" You would get some natural growth in the new filter, but it would take quite a few weeks, and the existing colony would have shrunk, to leave the overall bacteria level the same. Therefore, when you removed the new filter for the 5½G, you'd suddenly have an issue in the established tank.
 
Hope this helps.

 

[fatheadminnow]

I agree with the above statement.
 
What you are talking about is known as Cloning.  Taking some MM (Mature Media) and transferring it to another filter.
 
Like mentioned above only take up to 1/3 of the MM from the cycled tank and replace it with new media.
 
Transfer that MM to the new tank but don't considered it cycled.  Think of it more as a jump start.  So, transfer the MM and then start the fishless cycling process.  The cycle might last a week, it might last a month.  It all depends on how much bacteria was on the MM you transferred from your cycled tank.
 
Other than that I have only had one Betta in my life and it was years ago so I don't have a whole lot of info on them.

 

[cowgirluntamed]

Thanks guys! I may just do its own fishless cycle then. I don't want to hurt the other established tanks at all. I have ammonia so I can do it. Thanks for the information! I can always go to the betta forum and ask my specific questions there. Thanks again!
Kristen

 

[fatheadminnow]

I would still maybe grab a little MM out of your currently established tank.  Just for a little kick start.  

 

[the_lock_man]

I would still maybe grab a little MM out of your currently established tank.  Just for a little kick start.  

 
It certainly won't hurt. Established bacteria seems to multiply quicker than a new colony (I don't know if that's a fact, just an observation of my own experience), so even a tiny piece of media could easily save you a couple of weeks.

 

[Byron]

Thanks guys! I may just do its own fishless cycle then. I don't want to hurt the other established tanks at all. I have ammonia so I can do it.

Thanks for the information! I can always go to the betta forum and ask my specific questions there. Thanks again!
Kristen

 
In your situation, I would not bother with all this "cycling" business as it will be unnecessary.  A single Betta in a tank with live plants will not produce more ammonia than the plants will readily take up, and the little bit that slips by will be used to colonize the bacteria.  This "silent cycle" as many call it is the method I always use, in tanks with a lot more fish, and it has never failed me yet.  It can't hurt to transfer some live bacteria, but I certainly would not get into adding ammonia to fishless cycle, as this has risks associated with it in planted tanks.
 
Byron.

 

[cowgirluntamed]

Thanks Byron. Maybe I'll just get the plants first and let them get established for a bit then. At least it's something to look at before I get the betta! And much easier than trying to figure out the ammonia for the little tank. So are the crypts wendtii, the anubias nana, and the dwarf sag ok for this tank? I was thinking of maybe some frog bit as well? I know the nana wouldn't exactly take up a lot of stuff from the fish, but would the others? Also, I just started looking up some mini canister filters, would those be ok for a betta? I'd like to have the room a sponge would take up in there for more plants. (One on ebay had an adjustable flow valve supposedly but I'm still looking. There were a couple of others that said nothing about adjustable flow rates). Do you now anything about these? Thanks for the info! Kristen

 

[Byron]

Thanks Byron. Maybe I'll just get the plants first and let them get established for a bit then. At least it's something to look at before I get the betta! And much easier than trying to figure out the ammonia for the little tank. So are the crypts wendtii, the anubias nana, and the dwarf sag ok for this tank? I was thinking of maybe some frog bit as well? I know the nana wouldn't exactly take up a lot of stuff from the fish, but would the others? Also, I just started looking up some mini canister filters, would those be ok for a betta? I'd like to have the room a sponge would take up in there for more plants. (One on ebay had an adjustable flow valve supposedly but I'm still looking. There were a couple of others that said nothing about adjustable flow rates). Do you now anything about these? Thanks for the info! Kristen

 
The named plants should be fine here.  Floating plants are in my view essential for anabantids like the Betta, especially if they have dangling root systems which such fish find natural.  Frogbit should provide that.  I would probably be inclined more to Water Sprite (Ceratopteris cornuta) which is natural to the Betta's habitat and has a much more dense root system, plus a softer leaf.  Faster-growing plants obviously use more nutrients, hence more ammonia/ammonium, and floating are the best for this.  Once you have the plants, you will not have issues introducing the Betta.
 
I saw your other thread on external canister filters, but I cannot offer much as I have never used the small ones.  I have large canisters on my larger tanks, and on my smaller tanks I use either a simple sponge filter (the 10g, 20g and 29g each have this), or an internal Eheim Mini filter which is just a sponge but with a motorized head.  I have this in my 33g, and it is quite the little filter.  It does produce a strong current for the size though, and in a 5g I would worry it was too much.  There is no way to adjust the flow.  In my 33g this is ideal, but even in this 3-foot tank with the filter in the right rear corner, i can still detect a slight current at the far end.
 
I know you are wanting to avoid internal space being taken up by filters, hence looking at external.  But the Hagen Elite single sponge filter is quite good for not taking up space, or at least it can be nicely hidden behind a chunk of wood in one rear corner.  This filter does a very good job on my 10g, and I have the dual sponge model on my 20g and 29g.
 
Byron.

 

[cowgirluntamed]

I'm sure I could always go with Water Sprite for the floating plant. Especially if it is natural for the betta. As for the Hagan Elite, I believe you mentioned that in another post of mine not too long back. Lol. I looked it up and will do so again but would this fit in a 5.5 gallon tank ok? It seemed like it was pretty tall. The tank is only 10 inches tall and I know I need to leave room for the betta to get air as well. Does this filter have to go straight up and down or can it go a little sideways? Does it have a spray bar thing? I can't quite tell in the picture but I know sponge filters are run with air pumps. Does it have small bubbles that come out of it? The one I have produces quite large bubbles which is why I was looking at replacing it. I didn't think waves on the top of the water would be good for a betta...
   Kristen

 

[fatheadminnow]

The waves on the surface is actually how oxygen enters the water.  One thing to keep in mind is that this is a small tank.  Small tanks are very susceptible to fluctuations.   Staying on top of weekly tank maintenance is going to become important to clear debris and waste from the substrate.  If you don't plan on doing a traditional cycle and just plan on putting plants and the betta in (which I do not recommend), just keep an eye on water parameters and/or fish behavior.  If you suspect anything; check water parameters.  

 

[Byron]

I'm sure I could always go with Water Sprite for the floating plant. Especially if it is natural for the betta. As for the Hagan Elite, I believe you mentioned that in another post of mine not too long back. Lol. I looked it up and will do so again but would this fit in a 5.5 gallon tank ok? It seemed like it was pretty tall. The tank is only 10 inches tall and I know I need to leave room for the betta to get air as well. Does this filter have to go straight up and down or can it go a little sideways? Does it have a spray bar thing? I can't quite tell in the picture but I know sponge filters are run with air pumps. Does it have small bubbles that come out of it? The one I have produces quite large bubbles which is why I was looking at replacing it. I didn't think waves on the top of the water would be good for a betta...
   Kristen

 
A single-sponge Elite would fit OK.  The airlift tube is extendable, so I have mine at the surface so it creates a flow across the tank; it turns any direction.  The sponge I have horizontal about 1/2 an inch above the sand.  This is in the left rear corner, with a chunk of wood sitting to block the view but not the flow.  With the plants, and with just a Betta, you will have no oxygen worries.  I had my 10g running for over a year with no filter at all, and the fish were fine.
 
You adjust the flow by adjusting the valve that should be in the line from the air pump.  You always want the pump to run at full strength (this prolongs its life) so you need valves to control the air into the tank(s).  I have three tanks plus a bleeder line.  If you have just the one sponge filter, you should have a dual valve so one will be the tank line and one the excess bleeder line.  You can adjust the tank valve (provided the bleeder is not full open, as air like water will take the route of least resistance) and then the bleeder.
 
I searched my tank photos and found one where you can see the sponge filter a bit, before I put the second chunk of wood in to "hide" it.  Left, just above the lowest bunch of oak leaves, you can see the dark brown sponge.  The airlift tube is in the left corner.

 

[cowgirluntamed]

Fathead- I would be putting plants in first and make sure I can grow those really well and that they were going nice and strong before I put a betta in. If they wouldn't grow I will do a traditional cycle. I have the api test kit so I can measure everything. My 10 gallon actually did a mini cycle when I tried to add some plants first that didn't make it through shipping but still tried to save. And after that, slowly adding the fish worked well and everything has been stable.

Byron- Thanks for the info on the filter. I'm not sure I quite understand the dual valve thing though? Or at least setup of what you were saying. I think I understand the concept of what you meant. I'm still looking at other types of filters to but want to keep options open. Thanks for the picture!

Kristen

 

[Byron]

Byron- Thanks for the info on the filter. I'm not sure I quite understand the dual valve thing though? Or at least setup of what you were saying. I think I understand the concept of what you meant. I'm still looking at other types of filters to but want to keep options open. Thanks for the picture!
 

 
You're welcome.  I'll explain the valves.  There is a single air line running from the air pump.  Most air pumps do not have a guage, they just push out whatever psi of air.  If you connect this line direct to a single sponge filter, it may be far too strong for the tank, so inserting a valve allows you to adjust the air flow.  However, this means the air flow from the air pump is being partially blocked, and doing this can damage the pump.  So you use a dual valve inserted into the air line from the pump; one line then goes to the sponge filter and the other is a bleeder.  I have an old airstone connected to the bleeder which offers some resistance, preventing all the air from flowing through the bleeder.  As I mentioned previously, air will take the path of least resistance.  You can adjust both valves so that you have the air flow to the tank that you want, and the bleeder allows the additional air produced by the pump to still flow through the airstone and into the room.  Hope this makes it clear.

 

[cowgirluntamed]

Ah, I see now. I should probably get this set up on my other tanks then. I have check valves on them but didn't know it would lessen the life of the pump! Thanks for the info Byron!
Kristen