Feeding Questions / Issues

[Zhent]

Hi everyone,

I've recently started up a 29G tank. Apologies in advance for all the US measurements, metric appears to be more popular here but I honestly wouldn't know how to convert these if I tried

We did a fishless cycle which completed last week, and began to stock the tank on Saturday after a significant [~80%] water change.

Water parameters are:
76-77* F
6.5 - 6.8 pH
0 Ammonia
0 Nitrites
5-10 Nitrates

And have remained constant through the week thus far. The fish that we started with are 6 neon gold barbs. We drip acclimated them to the water in the tank over about 90 minutes, then brought them into the tank and everything appeared fine. However, things have kind of gone downhill since then.

We didn't know to crush the flakes or soak them in water first, and the can of fish flakes says to add just enough that can be eaten by the fish in a couple of minutes. Yesterday, after one full day of feeding the fish, we arrived home to find them all very lethargic, sitting on the gravel, half-heartedly swimming around, pointing up or down awkwardly, gills sometimes moving a mile a minute. We narrowed it down to two possible issues - insufficient aeration or overfeeding. We immediately turned on the airstone and added a second in the other corner of the tank to up the oxygen available, and stopped feedings.

One barb, unfortunately, passed away over the night - not an auspicious start, seeing as it only lasted about 60 hours. However, having arrived home again, the remaining fish appear much more active, are once again exploring the tank, and don't seem to be suffering any ill affects.

My questions:

1) Is there a way to determine if it was overfeeding or lack of oxygen? The tank is planted, with some Wisteria and swords, so previous to the incident I had only been running the airstone while the light was off, to promote growth.

2) I have regularly been dosing the tank with Excel, to promote the plant growth [the Swords appear to be having some issues lately, although the wisteria is growing like a weed] Could this have been the problem?

3) If the issue were overfeeding, how should I be feeding properly? A couple of flakes, ground up, mixed with water, once a day? Multiple times per day?

4) Also, if the issue were overfeeding, when should I resume feeding them? We've just passed 24 hours with no food now, how long before they start suffering from LACK of food?

5) Occasionally a fish will appear to attack or attempt to eat a bubble floating on the surface. Is this a sign of hunger, or sickness, or just playing around?

Thank you everyone [anyone] for the help provided.

 

[Gvilleguy]

I'll bump this one for you. I don't see anything out of whack from what you have described. One possibility is that you simply got a bad (or sick) batch of fish from your fish store.

It looks like the outflow nozzle of your filter is pointed across the surface, so it's providing agitation, yes? I think that would be enough oxygen for only six fish. It certainly doesn't hurt to run an air stone, unless you think it will hurt your plants. It helps to increase surface agitation, and therefore more oxygen exchange.

Regarding feeding - from what I have read on this forum, fish don't need as much food as most people want to give them. So feeding them once a day and giving only as much as they can take in a few minutes seems to be good. You can even skip a day every once in a while without worrying. (and I don't soak my flake food first - just plop it in and the fish eat it just fine)

 

[Katch]

Hmmm, your setup seems fine. Overfeeding will result in detectable levels of Ammonia and Nitrite in your water. Is there any chance you have some other contaminants in the water; copper etc? Is the water at your LFS similar to your own; pH and hardness.

It is possible that there wasn't enough oxygen in the water - if they perked up after the addition of an air pump...

Also what test kit do you have? I have had duff kits before that would make it seem the tank was cycled when in fact it was not. How long did your cycle take?

I would probably hold off on adding anymore fish for a while and perform lots of water changes to keep toxins down. It is entirely possible that you have sick fish from your LFS.

 

[Zhent]

I have an API master test kit. It tested properly against my ammonia and tap water, so I think it's still good.

My fishless cycle took 5 weeks.

The fish are perked up today, and I fed them a small amount this morning which they nibbled down fairly quickly [about 30 seconds]. I'm going to feed them again this evening, and probably keep up on 2 very small feedings each day rather than one larger feeding to prevent any single fish from gorging or having indigestion.

I'm definitely on hold in continuing to stock my tank. The only thing I may try and do this weekend is replace the one lost barb, so that they are all on roughly the same schedule.

After the barbs are settled, probably at least another 1-2 weeks after this, I plan on introducing the corys to the tank. I will give them 2-4 weeks as well before finalizing the tank with 1 Angel.

 

[Twinklecaz]

I thought if there's lack of oxygen then it's obvious coz the main symptom is they'll gasp at the top?

 

[Athena]

I think you'll find that an airstone doesn't add oxygen to the water (or so I've read) - it merely helps disperse any toxins in the water, allowing them to escape quicker at the surface. That's why it's good to have a bit of a ripple from the filter nozzle output flow/airstones rather than having everything silent/still. If your water stats are spot on then an airstone isn't necessary. Also, I'm sure I read on these forums that if you have live plants in the tank then it's best not to have an airstone on.

What type of flakes are you feeding them? I've never had to soak or crush flakes before feeding them.

Athena

 

[Zhent]

We're using Omega One flakes.

Omega One Freshwater Flakes

It was new to me as well, and since then a couple of people have told me that shouldn't be an issue, and it was more likely too much food rather than the food being too big / dry when it was eaten. I'm going to stick with less food, and if needed feed twice a day to keep them happier and try and prevent any overeating again.

One question with a smaller feeding - how do I go about making sure everyone gets some? Just spread the flakes about the top of the tank and hope everyone figures out the food is there at roughly the same time?

 

[Athena]

It's not necessary to soak these flakes. If you have bottom feeders then, yes, a handy tip is to put a few flakes into a small cup containing a bit of tank water, sloosh then around and pour quickly into the tank above where the bottom feeders are - the flakes are then forced downwards and as they would have soaked some water from the cup they are more likely to reach the substrate level for those bottom feeders.

Well, that might come in handy when you get your corys.

As for your question about feeding time and making sure they all get some - well, most fish will rush to the top at feed time and all grab at the food at the same time. If you notice that there's any fish in particular who are just not quick enough, then you can hold your hand above the water, wait for that particular fish to swim up and then put a couple of flakes in above it. Even if they did miss their chance, there's always next feed time - they won't starve in a few hours LOL

But, honestly, feeding shouldn't be a problem. You'll soon learn how to tell how much is enough to feed - slightly less is always better than too much LOL. And when those written instructions say feed as much as they will eat in 2-3 minutes, well that's just a rough guide.

Regards - Athena

 

[Zhent]

Thanks for the assistance and the info. I'm going to try feeding them tonight the 'normal' way, by just dropping the flakes on the top of the water and letting the fish come up for them. One possible issue with this is that every time I come near the tank they hide behind my plants and rocks; but hopefully in time they will learn to come say hello!

It may help when I stock the tank more fully - I can't help but think that with only 6 [now 5] barbs in a 29GAL, they are feeling pretty alone in there. The corys may help when they come in in about 10 days.

 

[Zhent]

Tonight after I ate dinner I resumed feedings. This time around I just added the flakes to the top of the water and let them sit until the fish noticed them.

After eating, everyone seems pretty quiet. The fish are spending some time at the bottom of the tank, hiding in the plants and amongst the roots of the Wisteria. [Do fish take time to digest and prefer to chill out for a while after eating?]

Most of the fish look great, are really glowing yellow, except for the only one that I have without a stripe. It's a little larger and noticeably rounder, and is considerably paler. Having lost one already, I'm afraid I've become a tad paranoid.

I have been unable thus far to get one of my striped friends to cooperate - they insist on hiding behind that tree branch every time I show up and just sitting about 1/2 inch off the substrate. This is about the best shot I have of them, but I think that it still shows the difference between them and Nostripe.

 

[waterdrop]

These fish normally inhabit bottom to middle, so they may be behaving normally. The larger, lighter colored one is probably female. They may want somewhat heavier plant cover. Plant cover is a funny thing, when there's more of it and fish feel more protected, they often respond by showing themselves more and being more brave. (I sympathize with you though, a 29 tall is a hard tank to plant!) It sounds like you feel your cycling ended solidly and the one result set you've given us is of course just fine. Do you happen to know your GH/KH readings? You have very low pH and that always makes it possible that your hardness numbers are quite low. I believe although gold barbs can be quite happy in a pH as low as 6, they prefer some to be somewhere above the very low hardness numbers (like GH 5?) as their minimum. That's kind of grasping at straws however and its probably more likely they just need some time to adjust and feel safe and comfortable, not to mention that the tank will become a better environment as you move towards 6 months. I do tend to lightly crush my flake foods just below the surface so that the food will drop for middle bottom feeders like these barbs. Also, very small containers of flake food are pretty cheap, so you could experiment with a number of different brands to see which these fish prefer.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Gvilleguy]

Interesting looking fish, Zhent - I don't think I've seen those in my LFS. I hope they continue to do well.

 

[Zhent]

Thanks everyone!

Waterdrop - I don't have my GH / KH readings at the moment, but the LFS will test those for me and I can report back over the weekend. The readings I've posted are pretty consistent - I tested again last night and got 0/0/10-20, so everything is staying pretty reasonable. I did feed them last night by just dropping the flakes on the surface and letting the fish find them on their own - after about 30 seconds they had all found them and were busy munching away. No side effects, and everyone was pretty happy this morning.

Couple questions for you:

1) That larger, paler fish that is probably female - I only have the one. I've read around that if you end up with females you ideally want about 3 per male, so they don't get stressed and die early. Should I be considering replacing this female with another male this weekend?

2) Last night and this morning I noticed the barbs doing ... something in the bubbles released from the airstone. They were swimming up and down in them, then occasionally swimming out and going to the bottom and riding them up. Sometimes there were 2-3 barbs all doing the same thing. When they are not in the bubbles they do not appear to be gasping, not gulping water and seem to swim just fine. Do fish sometimes just play in the bubbles?

3) Any suggestions on something that will grow vertically at some point? I have 65Watts of lighting and typically dose Excel daily, although after the loss I have refrained from dosing recently. As you can see, the Wisteria is loving itself and growing all over everything, but the swords are having trouble and growing horizontally rather than vertically.

 

[Gvilleguy]

If you want a plant that grows quickly, you can try Water Sprite. I added some to my tank a month ago, and it grows like a weed in my low 15 watt lighting. In this picture you can see the water sprites across the back of the tank (the green one in the right back corner is a fake plant).

My fish love using the sprites for cover,either hanging underneath the trunks, or swimming in the leaves. This plant needs to be rooted above the substrate. I just took a rock, wrapped the long roots around it, and secured with a rubber band. Works fine.

 

[waterdrop]

Yes, lots of fish like to play in bubbles and it shows that you are providing them with good water and they are feeling better.

I wouldn't take any action yet on my single speculation about the female. Wait and watch how they behave (most of all) and also be doing searches and studying up on these fish and asking others about them. Give it a little time.

~~waterdrop~~