Dwarf Ambulia turning brown

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Pellington

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Hi guys,

My tank has been running for about 6 weeks and was planted from day 1. The plants have all been growing well (so well in fact that i've been trimming them back) but the dwarf ambulia (which started as a a lovely bright green) has been gradually turning brown, despite showing good growth.

Any idea why that would be ? Details of the tank below/parameters:

Tank: Aqua Marin Fresh 1200
Aquarium dimensions: 120 x 50 x 48 cm
Volume: 300 L
Lighting: 59w Fluval Plant 3.0 Bluetooth LED (on for 9hrs p/day)
Filter: Oase BioMaster Thermo External Filter 600
Temp 27
Ph 8.2 (i realise this is too high, not really sure why it is high noting my tap water is 7.6. Haven't yet taken any steps to bring it down)
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 20
Stocklist - 23 x cardinal tetra, 3 x yoyo loach, 1 x oto catfish, 15 amano shrimp.

Photo attached. Welcome any thoughts.
Cheers
Jake
 

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It is most probably something with either the light or nutrients, or both. Limnophila sessiliflora is the species and I believe it requires fairly strong light intensity (brightness).

I have no idea as to the intensity of the light mentioned. It should be bright enough, but that is only a guess. Be careful with the blue though, this can encourage algae and plants cannot use it. Which brings me to the spectrum, do you have the Kelvin or CRI number for this light?

As for nutrients, which must be sufficient to balance the light, are you using any fertilizers?

The swords in the photo appear to have some issues. Just off the top of my head I am thinking most likely lack of nutrients, but not ruling out light.

Ph 8.2 (i realise this is too high, not really sure why it is high noting my tap water is 7.6. Haven't yet taken any steps to bring it down)

The pH is connected to the GH and KH, so it would help to have these values for the source water. As for pH, are you sure the tap water is 7.6? You need to out-gas any CO2 when testing pH in tap water; if there is a significant amount, the pH will test lower than it actually is, until the CO2 is out-gassed. Let a glass of tap water sit 24 hours, then test, this will be an accurate reading.

If the CO2 is not the issue and the tap water is actually 7.6, then something calcareous in the aquarium will likely be raising the pH.
 
It's either algae or lack of fertiliser.

The lighting is fine because the plants have decent size diameter leaves. Lack of light causes smaller leaves and longer gaps between the sets of leaves.
 
Thank you so much guys for coming back to me. Really keen to get to the bottom of this and I massively appreciate your help.

Byron - i've checked the manufacturers specification on the lighting unit and it states 4250lm and 6500K. Reading online it sounds like I would need 20-30 lumens p/litre, which for a 300L tank would be 6000-9000lm. With this in mind, at 4250lm, am I short? Colin - looking at the plants more closely it does appear that as the plant gets taller there are longer gaps between leaves. (I have circled what i mean in the photo attached).. Also worth mentioned that i have a glass lid, which is normally a bit cloudy and covered in condensation. It's impossible to keep clear! Could this be blocking some light?

In terms of fertilisers, when the tank was initially planted I used a few large bags of Fluval Stratum soil, which after planting i covered in white sand, so there should be a good deal of nutrients feeding the roots from that. Additionally, i have been dosing 15ml p/week of Microbe-Lift plant fertiliser to feed the leaves.

Byron - thank you for pointing out my stupidity in measuring the pH of my tap water, straight from the tap. Doh! I have a glass of tap water out-gassing as we speak, so will revert back with an accurate reading later.

Thanks guys!
 

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On the light...spectrum at 6500K is ideal. Intensity is still a concern for me, the leafless stems are what Colin referenced, possibly due to insufficient light. This plant needs good lighting, stronger than some other plants. I am not saying this is a light issue, but it is one possible factor.

Microbelift won't say what exactly is in the fertilizer, except nitrogen. Nitrogen is not going to help if the other nutrients are not sufficient. And plants take up ammonia/ammonium as their nitrogen source anyway.
 
Thanks Byron.. On the back of the Microbe-lift bottle it has a list of the ingredients (photo attached).

I have also checked my out-gassed tap water and you are bang on... 8.2. I feel this is too high and i am keen to bring down, but i'll probably post a separate thread for that to avoid going off on a tangent! :)

Look forward to your thoughts on the ingredient list.
 

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Thanks Byron.. On the back of the Microbe-lift bottle it has a list of the ingredients (photo attached).

I have also checked my out-gassed tap water and you are bang on... 8.2. I feel this is too high and i am keen to bring down, but i'll probably post a separate thread for that to avoid going off on a tangent! :)

Look forward to your thoughts on the ingredient list.

Microbe looks basically OK. The swords are not looking so good, so there is still something wityh the nutrients or the light or both.

Re the pH, yes, start a new thread. We have had a couple lately, and there is no way to lower pH except in connection with the GH and KH. You will need the GH and KH values for the source water when you post in the new thread on pH.
 
Thanks Byron,

The previous test results posted were all using liquid tests, but unfortunately I only have strips for GH and KH. I have tested the source water a moment ago (using the same out-gassed sample from yesterday) and am getting 20 KH and around 20-25 GH (I think - photo attached of the test result).

Interestingly, i am looking in the tank tonight and have spotted some bright green tips on some of the plants, which look newly sprouted (another photo attached). Perhaps a glimmer of hope?

You mention the swords aren't looking great. Excuse my ignorance but are they the red ones in the background?

In regards to the question as to whether it's nutrients vs lighting, I guess it's a case of trial and error? Shall I start by doubling the dose of Microbe-lift, and keeping an eye out for improvements? The instructions state 5ml p/100litres, 1-2 times per week. I have been dosing at the lower end so definitely room to increase without exceeding manufacturers recommendations.

Cheers
 

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The previous test results posted were all using liquid tests, but unfortunately I only have strips for GH and KH. I have tested the source water a moment ago (using the same out-gassed sample from yesterday) and am getting 20 KH and around 20-25 GH (I think - photo attached of the test result).

The numbers are degrees so that means fairly hard water with a high buffering capacity (to prevent the pH fluctuating). The only safe way to lower the pH is to dilute the source water with "pure" water, but keep in mind this will be necessary for every water change so the same parameter water is added.
 
Thanks Byron, any thoughts on the other question (about doubling the dosage of Microbe-Lift)?

In regards to the pH, I think I’ll start a new thread about that. Not as to how to safely reduce it (you’ve answered that for me - nice one) but as to whether I should reduce or just leave it alone….
 
Thanks Byron, any thoughts on the other question (about doubling the dosage of Microbe-Lift)?

In regards to the pH, I think I’ll start a new thread about that. Not as to how to safely reduce it (you’ve answered that for me - nice one) but as to whether I should reduce or just leave it alone….

This might work, but the danger is that if the issue is something else this could cause problem algae.

One would expect the Fluval Stratum to provide some nutrients, but... ?
 
Your pH is too high for this plant. In fact, a pH of 8.2 is basically too high for any plant.
 
Thanks Itiwhetu,

So is your view that my lighting and nutrients are possibly not the cause, and that this is mostly due to high pH?

I was really hoping to avoid using an RO unit. I had one for 5 years when I kept marines and I was keen to make my tropical experience a bit more user friendly!

Do you happen to know how much my tap water would need diluting by in order to lower the pH to 7? For example if I am doing a 50% water change (ie 150l), how many of those litres would need to be RO? I am trying to weigh up the hassle of making my own versus collecting a couple of drums from the LFS each week.

Cheers all
 
Do you happen to know how much my tap water would need diluting by in order to lower the pH to 7? For example if I am doing a 50% water change (ie 150l), how many of those litres would need to be RO? I am trying to weigh up the hassle of making my own versus collecting a couple of drums from the LFS each week.
There is probably a way of calculating it but honestly its probably quicker to just trail and error it.

Get a few liters of RO and start with mixing 200ml of RO to 200ml of (off gassed) tap water and see where that gets you. Then add either RO or tap water 100ml at a time until you get to where you want.

Lets say its a 50/50 mix (probably wont be). 25% water change a week would mean 75L total.
50% is RO so 37L of RO a week (1 and a halfish 25L containers). I think my MIL pays about £3 for 25L at her LFS so £6 a week Vs cost of RO unit and water costs if you are on a meter.

Spotless water is supposed to be really good and is a LOT cheaper (like 4P/L) if you have one near you:
 
Thanks Itiwhetu,

So is your view that my lighting and nutrients are possibly not the cause, and that this is mostly due to high pH?

I was really hoping to avoid using an RO unit. I had one for 5 years when I kept marines and I was keen to make my tropical experience a bit more user friendly!

Do you happen to know how much my tap water would need diluting by in order to lower the pH to 7? For example if I am doing a 50% water change (ie 150l), how many of those litres would need to be RO? I am trying to weigh up the hassle of making my own versus collecting a couple of drums from the LFS each week.

Cheers all

Earlier you indicated you would start a new thread on the pH issue. I haven't come across it yet, so I will comment here.

First thing to get straight is...you cannot adjust the pH without consideration of the GH and KH. The three parameters are linked. We do not have the GH and KH of the source water, and these values are crucial. If the GH/KH are high, the buffering capability on the pH will be strong and resist any attempts to lower. Adding some sort of pH lowering chemical including vinegar will not work if the GH/KH are high. If the GH/KH are quite low, their effect on buffering is much less, and the pH w2ill usually lower of its own accord due t5o acids produced in the aquarium. Adding natural organics like wood, leaves, peat etc may encourage this--but again, it will not work if the GH/KH is sufficient to buffer the pH.

Second, there are other factors affecting pH. The dissolved CO2 for example, which is why you out-gas tap water to obtain a more accurate pH reading. Plants affect the pH diurnally too. My tanks' pH lowers during the darkness when plants are not using CO2 in photosynthesis, and then rises during the day period when they are using the CO2. This is only a few decimal places, and this diurnal fluctuation occurs in nature. And BTW, the problem with your Ambulia has nothing to do with pH; for one thing, I do see issues with the swords as already mentioned.

Back to "lowering" the pH...we need to know the GH and KH in order to assess if this is even feasible. If the GH/KH are fairly high, diluting the source water with "pure" water will be necessary, and this is proportional; i.e., mixing 50% tap with 50% pure (RO, distilled, sometimes rainwater) will reduce the GH/KH by half roughly, and so forth. However, if the GH/KH is low, this diluting will not likely be necessary, as more natural processes will handle the lowering of the pH.

Another thing to check is whether the water authority add something to increase the pH. This would be likely if the GH/KH are quite low with a quite high pH (like over 8). I have this to deal with in my water.
 

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