Dr. Tims Waste Away And Bettas?

[starlitsunrise]

I have cyanobacteria (blue-green algae) in my ten gallon again, the first time it happened I didn't add anything to the tank and just removed as much as I could and then did a black out for a few days. After this it was gone but it has since come back.

I was looking on the Dr. TIm's Aquatics website and found that they have a product designed to remove it.  I have used some of Dr. Tim's other products before and had good results but have never used this one. 

Does anyone think that this product would harm my betta? 

OH! also Dr. Tim's Refresh

http/www.drtimsaquatics.com/treat-aquarium-algae/treating-cyanobacteria

 

[Meeresstille]

If you have a separate tank or even just a critter keeper, you could keep the Betta in there for the short time while you treat the affected tank. 

 

[Wildbetta]

I am just not sure how I feel about adding products like these and what their real usefulness is.  Especially since their website does not show you what is actually IN the products.  

 

[the_lock_man]

I think you would be better off trying to identify why you are getting the cyanobacteria in the first place, and curing it at the root of the problem. Treat the cause, not the symptoms.

 

[Chad]

My recommendation for cyano is to suction it out daily until at least 20% of the water has been removed (more if needed to suction it all). The action of removal and replacement with new water has worked for me many times to get rid of it. Cyano is rather nitrate loving and the act of changing the water tends to get rid of it over time. By suctioning it out you remove the risks associated with cyano (low oxygen). It's a simple and effective way to get rid of the stuff. 
 
Pretty much every tank I have ever owned gets cyano in the early stages of its life as part of the cycle I call "the uglies" and goes away using the above as the tank matures some more. The nitrogen cycle is just one part of a tank's early life, an important one, but a tank has lots of maturing to do in the first 6 months to a year of existence. 

 

[Ch4rlie]

My recommendation for cyano is to suction it out daily until at least 20% of the water has been removed (more if needed to suction it all). The action of removal and replacement with new water has worked for me many times to get rid of it. Cyano is rather nitrate loving and the act of changing the water tends to get rid of it over time. By suctioning it out you remove the risks associated with cyano (low oxygen). It's a simple and effective way to get rid of the stuff. 
 
Pretty much every tank I have ever owned gets cyano in the early stages of its life as part of the cycle I call "the uglies" and goes away using the above as the tank matures some more. The nitrogen cycle is just one part of a tank's early life, an important one, but a tank has lots of maturing to do in the first 6 months to a year of existence.

 
 
That's really interesting actually, as I thought cyanobacteria was more due to low nitrate according to a site I often use for algae information.
 
Quote -
 
Blue Green Algae, BGA
 
"This isn't a true algae, but a bacteria called cyanobacteria that is able to photosynthesise. Covers everything in a blue/green slimy mat. Easily peels off but grows back again very quickly. It can smell pretty foul. It is very commonly found in the substrate and especially along the front glass where is receives light.
 
Often caused by very low nitrates. It is fairly common to have it growing in the substrate against the front glass from where it can spread. Sometimes it appears with new setups that have had light and ammonia present at some point. Dirty substrates and filters may also bring it on. Poor water circulation is another possible cause."
 
http/www.theplantedtank.co.uk/algae.htm
 
And that goes on to say blackouts are best method of eradication.
 
I now have my doubts about the blackout method as all too often I hear algae returning after some time without solving what the tank / water issue was that caused the algae to appear in the first place, be it low/high nitrate, lights, flow, co2, sunlight etc etc
 
Might be the case it varies in individual tanks as no two tanks are alike in water parameters and set up or am being misinformed by this site, hard to know sometimes which sites or advice to rely on.

 

[Chad]

It is in how it exploits it. Similar to how Co2 issues can cause algae to grow. This is why as the tank matures the cyano usually goes away.
 
Since I keep corals a black out is out of the question and many chemical solutions are out as well. That forced me to use a more mechanical method which I found worked 100% of the time (for me anyway). Siphon/water change. 

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Most of the above information is simply not right. I wrote a post and posted it and it has vanished. Ugh. Here is a shorter version.
 
1. Go to Dr. Hovanec's site and you will see he does indeed explain the difference between treating the symptoms and the cause. he also explains the cause, which is not nitrate, it is excess organics. His product deals with these not nitrate. Read here http/www.drtimsaquatics.com/natural-aquarium-cleaner/how-to-remove-algae-from-aquarium

 
The traditional way to treat cyanobacteria and algae is with antibiotics and algaecides, respectively. But these only go after the symptoms of the problems and do nothing about the source of the problems. Plus they create their own problems. The traditional antibiotics used to fight cyanobacteria also kill the beneficial nitrifying bacteria and symbiotic coral bacteria. Algaecides can also kill beneficial microorganisms that are needed to keep the aquarium in balance.

Go Natural – Stop Using Antibiotics
Use DrTim’s Aquatics Waste-Away as a 100% natural way to get rid of the underlying cause of out of control growth of aquarium slime, algae and cyanobacteria. These unsightly organisms grow when nutrients and organics are high in your aquarium. The only long-term way to deal with them is to eliminate their food – excess nutrient and organics.

 
2. Cyano does not use up oxygen it makes it. If not for cyano there would not be much O on earth and this would be a moot discussion as humans would never exist. While I normally dislike Wiki, they have decent info on this topic: https/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanobacteria
 
3. If too much or too little nitrate was the cause, then almost every tank would have it since many tanks typically can have close to 0 nitrate and others too much.
 
4. Dr. Hovanec is a practicing Ph.D. microbiologist and a life long fish keeper. So he would know the biology here if anybody does. But, more importantly, if his products harmed tanks and their inhabitants how long do you think he would have had his job and then how long would he have stayed in his own business?
 
5. I have had 15 - 20 permanent tanks up for over 10 years. I have set up and taken down at least 50 more over the past 14 years (they run for a few months to under a year) I have only ever had cycano in two tanks in all that time. So, for me at least, cyano is not typical in new fw tanks. (About 50% of those tanks were planted and the rest devoid of plants.)

 

[Chad]

 
2. Cyano does not use up oxygen it makes it. If not for cyano there would not be much O on earth and this would be a moot discussion as humans would never exist. While I normally dislike Wiki, they have decent info on this topic: https/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanobacteria
 
 

The reduction occurs with the inevitable die-off that follows algae/cyano blooms (http/blooms.uwcfl.org/what-are-habs). This is why I recommend suctioning it out. 

 

[Byron]

TTA has covered it.  Organics in the presence of light is the cause of cyanobacteria; I learned this from a microbiologist friend.  I have only had to battle this in one of seven tanks, my 70g.  This happened when it was set up with a gravel substrate, and sometime later after I had torn it down and reset it with a sand substrate.  I got the better of it both times by increasing my cleaning of the substrate, which is the prime source of organics, and removing as much as possible during each water change.  Normally I would leave the substrate alone, since the tank is well planted, but cleaning into the sand in the open areas, which is about 1/4 of the substrate, plus reducing the light by one hour solved it.  Why this tank and none of the others ever gets cyano I don't know, but realizing that this tank being shallower is actually receiving more light intensity from the two tubes than the deeper 90g and 115g, I reduced the light by an hour to see if it would help and so far (about five months now) it has, along with the weekly substrate vacuum as mentioned.  Increasing the volume of weekly partial water changes (and increasing the number of water changes initially) also helps, as this too removes organics.  There are of course organics in the tap water, but if cyano is a problem chances are the organics in the tank water are far greater.
 
To the product being questioned.  I personally would not use this, simply because I follow a basic premise that the fewer substances/chemicals entering a closed aquatic system like an aquarium, the better for the biological system and fish.  Targeting the source is the way to go, and this can be done without dumping in more stuff.  Everything entering the system is going to impact the system.  It may or may not be a detrimental impact, but it is still an impact, and that is just one more "un-natural" factor.
 
Byron.

 

[Wildbetta]

I agree with Byron on this one.  I don't believe in dumping stuff in the tank without a true need for it -- say medication wise.  And no offense to the producer of Dr Tim's stuff but I don't believe in a "cure in a bottle" for anything.  Same reason I don't use or recommend the bottled bacteria to start a cycle on a tank.

 

[starlitsunrise]

Ok so the general consensus is a no haha. 

Thanks for all of your opinions. I'll keep removing what I can when ever I see it show up and I'll try to figure out what is causing the issue. I just want the best for my betta. 

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Wb- adding bacteria to a tank is not the same thing as adding medication. The former is intended to supply something needed which is absent but which, over a much longer time period, will colonize on its own. The other is intended eliminate something we do not want.
 
You may choose not to use such things, but that does not mean they do not do the job for which they are intended.
 
I cannot claim I like to salt my steak and then state I would never add sodium chloride to my food. But let me leave you with this from another practicing PH.D, microbiologist who is also a lifelong fish keeper:
 

 
Water filtration is teamwork by the members of the substrate microbial community from all domains of life. This is an important conclusion, both for freshwater and marine habitats. The different players form a food web, where most organisms cannot exist alone but are interdependent. The microbial community varies greatly depending on the availability of foods, pore sizes, and substrates. Soil biofiltration is therefore very plastic, meaning it can cope with a variety of conditions. However, one feature is common. Natural layers of biofiltration are usually undisturbed for longer periods of time (many weeks and months). In nature, no one squeezes out the debris or rinses the media on a weekly schedule. Occasionally, seasonal floods or rains may “wash” a gravel bed but regular rinsing of the filter media is not happening. The microorganisms eat the debris and the sludge is completely broken down into gases and soluble products that then escape the pore space. Soil biofilters are almost maintenance-free. The released substances are either getting into the atmosphere or are taken up by plants.
 
For aquarium biofiltration to be most effective, filters should be running undisturbed for as long as possible. Filter media that remain passable and have a variety of pore sizes are best. Given that we like to influence the water parameters depending on the species we keep, and thus make water soft, hard, etc, the filter media should be chemically inert, so that it does not affect the water chemistry by itself.
 
Author © Stephan M. Tanner, PhD

from http/www.swisstropicals.com/library/aquarium-biofiltration/
 
Further reading on this sort of things in tanks by the same author can be found here http/www.swisstropicals.com/library/mattenfilter/
 
Moreover, the causes of bga are tied pretty well to higher temperature and phosphorus as essential component. The latter is considered a limiting factor. If one reads the science on cyano in nature is all shows the same thing, organic nutrients at the base. I have not yet found any research on cyano which does indicate an excess of organic waste as the root cause. Given a large enough bloom the cyano can actually reduce the oxygen in the water because when on the surface it prevents the free exchange of gasses and stopsting oxygen from getting in. In many cases the cause of cyano and other algal outbreaks are considered to have been caused by human interactions which have created the conditions that fosters such blooms.
 
Here are some studies one can peruse if interested. Of course, in the wild or in aquaculture it is the cyano types that produce harmful toxins or prevent oxygen from entering the water that are the concern. But what the bga in tanks needs to thrive needs is no different than it is in nature.
 
Harmful freshwater algal blooms, with an emphasis on cyanobacteria
http/downloads.hindawi.com/journals/tswj/2001/139109.pdf
 
A world overview—One-hundred-twenty-seven years of research on toxic cyanobacteria—Where do we go from here?
http/www.researchgate.net/publication/5389419_A_world_overview--one-hundred-twenty-seven_years_of_research_on_toxic_cyanobacteria--where_do_we_go_from_here/file/e0b4952bb6f2b76a3e.pdf
 
Fish mortality due to cyanobacterial bloom in an aquaculture pond in Bangladesh
http/docsdrive.com/pdfs/ansinet/pjbs/2003/1046-1050.pdf
 
So to starlit Isay the exact opposite of what Wildbetta has. Go ahead an use waste-away it is safe for your tank and its inhabitants and it should help with your issues.
 
Note to Byron- how exactly do you know that over the it was not the establishment of needed bacteria that did as much to get rid of your bba as what you reported? These bacteria are usually ones which do not come up to full strength in a tank until months after is has been set up and cycled. This is what makes a tank mature."

 

[Byron]

Note to Byron- how exactly do you know that over the it was not the establishment of needed bacteria that did as much to get rid of your bba as what you reported? These bacteria are usually ones which do not come up to full strength in a tank until months after is has been set up and cycled. This is what makes a tank mature.
 

 
I don't know.  I have found it odd that it is only this one tank, and with totally different setups, that has developed cyanobacteria.  I have never seen it in any of the other tanks, with one exception.  I had an experimental 10g in the south-facing window that had no filter and no light, just a heater.  Cyano did occur in this tank after maybe 2-3 months, but only on the back glass closest to the window, and only in the upper left corner.  But I have never seen it in any of the other tanks, over 20 years.
 
Both cases, the cyano appeared about a year after the tank was set-up.  Substrate, plant load, fish load, fertilizing, feedings and water changes are basically identical in all my tanks.  Yet twice cyano occurred in this 70g.  The first time it came back after about 3 months of clearing it up.  The last time, under the present set-up, I removed a chunk of wood that seemed to be the "centre" of the spread, and gave it a right good scrub, then left it out of the tank for a few weeks before returning it.  This plus the substrate vacuuming and reducing the light an hour seems to have worked, as it has not returned.
 
And just so you have all the data, all of my tanks have been re-set at least once over the past five years.  I replaced the substrate (gravel to sand) in all but one of seven over a 3 year period, and when I do this I replace filter media and wash the hard media under the hot water tap.  So this would probably amount to a fairly new set-up each time.  But the cyano has only ever appeared in the 70g, and twice (or three times counting the return).
 
Byron.

 

[Wildbetta]

Wb- adding bacteria to a tank is not the same thing as adding medication. The former is intended to supply something needed which is absent but which, over a much longer time period, will colonize on its own. The other is intended eliminate something we do not want.
 
You may choose not to use such things, but that does not mean they do not do the job for which they are intended.
 
I cannot claim I like to salt my steak and then state I would never add sodium chloride to my food. But let me leave you with this from another practicing PH.D, microbiologist who is also a lifelong fish keeper:
 

 
TTA -- I never once said that adding bacteria and medication was the same thing.  I simply stated that I do not recommend nor do I like to use medication OR "cure all" (maybe use of this word is what started the confusion) bacteria supplements which are supposed to do so much by just adding it to the tank.  I also never once stated that these products would not do the job for which they are intended -- I just mentioned that I do not recommend them or use them since I personally do not believe in them.  The OP on this topic or any other should make their own informed judgment as to whether they want to use those products or not.  You should not take it personally when someone does not recommend it to someone or does not believe in the product.  While I understand your reasoning behind recommending it and all the scientific data you always can bring to your argument, it is not going to make me believe in the product, use the product, or recommend the product.  
 
I have stated my piece and leave it at that.  I will not make this out to be an argument since there is no "right" answer on these products.  I suggest you do the same.
 
 
OP -- I recommend you take the information you have been given and make your own decision about how you want to proceed with your tank.  While I don't believe in the products, I also don't believe that your fish will be harmed if you decide to use them.  Hopefully that will make you rest a bit easier about making your decision.