Debate

[nicnak]

Very good post laura x

 

[OohFeeshy]

The only real arguement I have accepted is that breeding your own feeders is more humane than buying frozen fish such as whitebait or lancefish.

Or indeed, any fish food at all. Flakes and pellets don't grow on trees- they're made of minced up fish that were once alive. How do you think they were caught and killed? In a soft, scented net and gently put to sleep? Pull the other one, it's got bells on.

 

[nicnak]

And dont forget brine shrimp... they are alive as well

 

[england]

Feeding fry solely as a feeder is not really a good idea for the fishes health.....
But leaving a tank to get on with it, I dont see a problem with it, This is why most fish have lots of fry becuase only the strong survive.....
This is how life goes same as humans raising cows/sheep/pigs as feeders
I think because people are fish lovers obviously this is going to have an effect on most peoples minds,
but in the same time they could be sat there tucking into a nice juicy rare steak

Its alot like some people dont have problems keeping hamsters in cages or birds and others wholely think this is pure evil,
it is not ideal keeping fish in tanks but we humans will keep doing this as we can basically

 

[ALW]

Not everything was meant to survive.

An elephant takes a step and six grasshoppers are crushed. A branch falls off a tree and eighteen insects are drowned. There is a rockslide and the burrows of three platypus are caved in. A big fish eats a little one. A disease is introduced into a cave and a whole flock of bats dies. A meteor hits the earth and there is a mass extinction of dinosaurs. A puddle dries up and the tadpoles in it suffocate.

I wasn't meant to survive. My mother had pre-eclampsia, which resulted in my delivery by emergency caesarean, six weeks early. My lungs collapsed when I was two days old. Without modern medical technology - and several hundred thousand dollars - both my mother and I would have died. But I survived anyway because somebody cared for me, and somebody cared for my mother, and somebody asked that the doctors do something.

For my fish I am that somebody. But I see my duty, as the provider of care for dependant animals that have no ability to run away as a cat or dog might, to be to provide for them the best life that I can, not to ensure they survive at all costs. I will sooner euthanise a fish I cannot treat than see it suffer - and I will sooner feed excess fry to a larger fish than let them suffer in a filthy, overcrowded tank.

When I started keeping livebearers, I bought no males. I understood that they would probably breed anyway because I did my research. But I thought, ten to twenty fry per female per month? No problem.
Wrong. Fifty to sixty fry per female per month, because I kept them in good conditions and fed them properly. My LFS is also unable to take fish that are less than an inch long. I quickly came to the realisation that I would be unable to cope with the hundreds of fry, not because I didn't want to but because of a lack of space.

I do use fry as feeders. I don't raise them intentionally for that purpose, and if I have plenty of room, I save all the fry that I can. But when I don't have room, I feed them to the adults. I breed selectively - if my best female is dropping and I have no room, I don't let her fry get eaten. I feed the adult fish some of the fry from another drop. I agree totally with Teflon. How can it really be worse to be eaten at a few days old than to live in a tank with far too many other fish, overcrowded, cramped and underfed, dying slowly of starvation or disease? If a female drops thirty fry every month for eighteen months, that's over five hundred fry in her lifetime. If just two of those 500 - 1/250th of the fry that are born by a conservative estimate - made it to adulthood, her job is done. She and her mate have been replaced. Livebearer populations are relatively stable. Nobody carries on about the fry that were born in the wild and got eaten.

Why? They weren't born in a glass tank. We didn't see them. Why does everybody feel better about letting fry born in a community tank get eaten? Because they didn't make the decision. If I wasn't the one holding the net, tipping the tiny babies into a tank with predators in it, knowing that their lives would end in seconds, it doesn't seem as bad somehow. I don't like using my fry as feeders, but I see no other option. I honestly think it would be crueller to keep them alive. It all comes back to Colin's point. We conveniently forget that a couple of days ago, that steak was a cow, walking around the paddock eating grass and scratching another cow's back. I'd be a hypocrite to rub it in - I have never seriously considered becoming a vegetarian - but it's a good point. Humans are visual creatures. If we don't see it we pretend it isn't happening. Why do you think the Africans are still starving and the gang warfare is still going on on the streets? We haven't been there and been exposed to it, so we forget all about it.

Like i said Out of sight out of mind

 

[Gill]

Alot of Interesting Input.

Forgive my Ramblings - I ramble alot, as some can testify to.
I don't always put my views out in teh best of methods, but want to add my opinion to this very adult and well discussed thread. (Which Makes a Change)

I agree that some emphasis should be on the LFS to educate the customer.
Having Worked in a Large LFS Chain i personally know that most people aren't listening to half or all of the information you are giving them.
You may try your hardest to educate someone on the fish they want to buy and if they hear No, more than often they would ask to speak to the Manager.
If i tried to explain that the fish will breed and have many offspring. most of the time they were not listening.

It was always refreshing to have a conversation with someone who understood the points i was making.

I Enjoy going to MA in Northampton (Even though its a Drive out of town for me) just because Stang1 works there and will take time out to chat to you and explain as much as she can within the restraints of being in retail and selling the fish. I have listened to her explain to people on the care and wellbeing of the fish and that the livebearers will breed. And witness the same people making nasty comments about the Vgood advice she has just given them, when she is out of earhsot.
But thats just life, people will hear what they want to hear and tune out the rest.

As an employee you can educate as much as you like, but in the end it is up to the person buying the fish to be responsible for there wellbeing and any subsequent offspring they may have.
It is not the responsibility of the LFS employee to forsee the future wellbeing of any livebearers sold on a month later. when the person may come back in with loads of fry.

Ok so if the LFS has a spare tank to put them in and raise them, good.
But think of the logistics of this for the store, the money spent on raising unwanted fish that are taking up space that could be used to sell some other fish.
If someone bought in a bag of livebearers they would be put in one of the quarantine tanks in the back. then as we closed up we would feed them to the various larger predatory fish and the marine fish.

Female Livebearers can store reserves of sperm from males and have fry without any males being present after being sold. How is the LFS employee to know that they have not been in a tank @ the suppliers with males present. They cannot.!!!!!!!! How many stores actually see the fish in person when buying them.
All they see are pages of fish species available. they cannot control mother naure prior to them receiving them. Many times the males may not be visible at the time of purchase and will develop in the tank with the females and then reproduce.
where is the Responsiblity to the LFS in that.

OK, so alot of people attach feelings to any fry that are born.
IF you cannot detach yourself from your emotions - Why are you keeping fish in the 1st place. Or Any Animal for that Matter.
I have Lots of Livebearers, some are for breeding and enjoying the development of fry. My Formosa.
Others (Platties and Molles) are there for breeding as feeders for my other fish.
I attach no emotions to them or moral values to them.
They are a source of food for my larger fish as a natural alternative to the chemically enhanced commercial foods. Which By the Way contain ALOT of FISH and FISH DERIVATES.
I feed the Molly Fry to the Giant Fighters who relish them and my other larger fish that i keep.


I like to Breed Fighters, and will Cull worthless looking fry without hesitation, no emotion attached them.
If i get Healthy good fry from them i keep them and offer them out. ATM I have a few LFS' Interested in any Resulting Fry from the Giants 1/2Giants i have. So Far No Success as its trail and error with them, but will see how they develop at rearing fry.

Could go on for ages but will leave it there for now, and come back later.

 

[Colin_T]

We conveniently forget that a couple of days ago, that steak was a cow, walking around the paddock eating grass and scratching another cow's back.

LOL
I can imagine these two cows in the paddock. One uses its hoof to scratch the others back. The other is saying lower, lower, nope higher, ahhh that's it right there

it is not ideal keeping fish in tanks but we humans will keep doing this as we can basically

it may not be ideal keeping fish in tanks but because we do several species of fish have been saved from extinction.

 

[SJ2K]

Keep my opinion simple.

I have no problem having fry born into a tank and left, knowing that some may survive while others dont, to me this is as close as you can get to 'natural selection' possible in a man made environment However, to introduce said fry into an alien environment where you are fully aware that they will all become prey for other fish is under the banner of 'feeder fish' which I do not agree with.

 

[robert.sadler]

I'm on the whole survival of the fittest side of the fence with this one.

I've had my tanks for about 6 months now but have only just got into the whole livebearer scene.

I'm setting up my new tank with several platys, swordtails and mollies along with a few cory's ( I realise the cory's aren't livebearers I just think they're cute so they've made it into this tank) and I fully intend to let them do their thing and leave them in the tank when they give birth.

I personally see no harm in this side of it as the parents and the surviving fish will all have a very nice place to live full of plants and the likes (The plants that will help a bunch of them survive by hiding them!) and the weaker fish that get eaten etc will not have to spend a life being just that bit to slow to get to the food or live with possibly uncomfortable deformities that seem so common amongst livebearers.

Today I have also gone and bought 8 female guppies to go in my first tank to keep my 4 male guppies company (I felt a bit mean keeping just males. Even fish deserve toget laid at least once in a lifetime) now they are in there with Colombian tetras gouramis RTBS and an angel and I'm fully confident that some of the fry will get eaten however ... some will survive ... which again I feel is good.

On a side note I can't wait to see the colouration of the surviving guppies as I have a nice variation of colours in there now.

Now my other pet based hobby is keeping tarantulas I have 8 in total which I feed live foods and no-one has ever questioned the morality of this with me because locust and crickets are "yucky" ... interesting!?

So yeah I'm all for survival of the fittest and letting nature do its thing in my little micro environments (Essentially thats what they are)

But I can see the arguments against.

Cheers

Robert

 

[Keithbaxter]

Im new here so Helloooo all!

I have 2 cornsnakes at the mo and I have had 5 in total over the years and I feed mice to them all teh time. Granted there frozen mice that i didnt kill but still mice.

I now have a 180litre tank with glowlites (started the tank and are stills trong) and 8 guppies 4 males 4 females and several loaches and other bottom and alge feeders. When i brought the first few guppies I wasnt warned of them being live breeders or that they have babies on a regular basis or anything. Ill hold my hands up I brought them with my girlfriend because she wanted something pretty and i wasnt going to splash out 30/40 quid on her first 10 choices. She seemed real excited by the colour variations and the friendlyness guppies always come to the front when ever anyone goes to the tank (i know this is because they associate people with food, but i let her think they recognise her and like her talking to them)

I now have 3 of 4 female guppies pregnant and im in two minds what todo the curious side of me wants to see Darwins theory proved and wants to let them just have the babies and then see which ones hide in the lovely slate rockery stack i spent hours building then see which ones and how many survive and then play the game of find the daddy! hehe

The other half of me walks past the pet shop all the time and wants to go in and buy a breeder box with compartment and have as many as i can keep alive survive but as ive seen loads of people say "if 30 survive can i shouse them" yes is the answer but the next 30 and the next and the next etc will just get silly.

Luckily my girlfriend is easily swayed in both directions but its my choice and as the first to drop is only days away im still deciding.

 

[andywg]

At least this one was only 4 months dead...

 

[Keithbaxter]

Hehe

Just noticed.

Ive been clicking alot today.

 

[Jazzzz]

I just leave babies in the community tank in which they were born. Mostly they are eaten but it meant minnimum stress and the odd one survives.

 

[jonnyf84]

fish shops should be aloud to sell what they want providing they are healthy specimens. You cannot begin to stop free will, if a beginner wants to start a new hobby in fish keeping then nobody should have the right to stop him, the lfs should provide info if needed. Fry are inevitable in most aquariums, what the owner does with them is their own choice, i agree with feeding them to larger fish, especially if they can't be re-homed or sold, they are a nutritional snack and takes the predator back to its wild roots, its totally inpractical for most hobbyists to keep supplying more and more aquariums to house new fry. Its a point of preference, if you want to find homes for them you will, theres so many lfs' around that you would find one that will take them off your hands. Again, personally, if i don't want to keep them, i'll use them as food.

Haha, just noticed how old this post is