Corydoras flashing, possible bully issue

[Jwgoff7772]

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQVuFROpmRD2YKH8IoDQpQA

You'll see my adult false juli flashin twice in 46 seconds.

40gallon breeder
Parameters
Temp: 76f
Am: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 10-20
Ph: 7.0
Kh:2
Gh:2
30-40% weekly wc with prime

Before I can upload a video I posted this concern last week but I am not sure if it is still active so I'm creating another thread.

9 corydora: 2 adult, seven 1.5 inch
1 pearl gourami but had been removed
Did have 10 cories but lost a young panda to what I believe was fin rot 2-3 weeks after I got him. Noticed 2-3 weeks ago my adult panda flashing here and there, maybe noticed it once a week. Then most of cories started flashing except for 2 and 2 out of my 3 young pandas are losing some color, the black bands are faded. They are very skittish and seemed to stress and I'll explain how. 4 days after my original post I noticed my 3 inch male pearl gourami picking on my cories, even after being fed first in a betta feeding square if he thought a cories had something he would bump them to get to it and then started doing it just because, I knew they can get bossy so I only fed him at the top of the tank and in the same spot each time and on the opposite side of aquarium to which I feed the cories in their open area. Tried time out in a breeder box because I didn't want to get rid of him but I tried it two occasions. the first time for 2 days and then a second time for 3 days and it didnt work. As soon as I would let him out he would go right back to bullying the cories and I don't have the means to support another 30 to 40 gallon tank on top of my current 40-gallon breeder and so back to the pet store he went. I've had two of those cories a long time and I was not going to give them up no matter how much I like the gourami. But my concern now that the stress brought by the gourami opened my cories up to disease or maybe the flashing and color fading a symptom of the stress itself? But they seem very stressed but are still eating and active, maybe a tad less active and if any Cory bumps into another Cory they both take off into opposite directions and then hide for a second, which is a Behavior I've never witnessed in the three years I've been keeping cories because when I used to see it before and they weren't expecting to be bumped by another cory they would just do a flick and land a couple inches away and go right back to doing what they were doing and would never go and hide so I wonder if they are just thinking it's the gourami bumping them still..? Any advice is much appreciated. Thank you

 

[Byron]

I see that now and then. It is most likely ich. Ich first attacks fish in the gills where we do not see it (the common spots) and the flashing is the fish attempting to dislodge it. I never worry about this, as left alone fish are able to fight it off and it rarely escalates, and may even disappear for the most part.

Obviously there are other reasons for flashing, but from this video I believe it is ich. Ich can be present in many of our aquaria but never become an issue until the fish are stressed. This is why newly acquired fish are so prone to ich; they are under severe stress from the transport, store conditions, chased/netted, then released into another strange environment. Stress is the direct cause of ich outbreaks, always. I frequently see a bit of flashing with newly acquired fish while in their quarantine tank (in my case I use a planted 20g tank to quarantine all new fish for a few weeks). It has so far never escalated and the flashing disappears within a few days. Treatment beyond clean water and quiet stress-free conditions is generally not needed nor is it advisable, esp with cories that are highly sensitive to any and all substances added to the tank water. So treatment is often only making it worse, and that is not worth the risk.

Sometimes this can linger for a time, but I wait it out and monitor thee situation before resorting to specific treatment. In that case, heat is usually the best. If even more is needed, as it may sometimes be, salt is safest over most any so-called ich remedy. I've used this with cories, wild caught characins, and loaches in the past.

 

[Colin_T]

You could raise the water temperature to 30C (86F) and keep it there for 2 weeks. If it's whitespot, the high temperature will kill it off without needing any medications.

If the water temperature is in the low 20s Celcius, then raise it slowly over a few days until you get to 30C.

Do a big (80-90%) water change and gravel clean before raising the temperature. This will dilute the gunk and number of pathogens in the water and allow the water to hold more oxygen.

Increase aeration/ surface turbulence to maximise the oxygen levels.

If the filter is established (been running for a couple of months), then clean it if it hasn't been done in the last 2 weeks.

The Cories won't particularly like the heat but as long as it goes up slowly they should be fine. After 2 weeks of high temperature you can lower it back down and if the problem is whitespot, it should be gone and the fish should stop rubbing on things.

 

[Jwgoff7772]

How slowly should I increase the temp and how much salt should I use since cories are more sensitive? it's only the cories in the tank, the gourami is no with me, he was just causing too much stress in my tank. I like the gouramis but my two oldest cories ivr had for almost 3 yrs and I could tell their demeanor changes after about 2 weeks of the gourami being in there so I'm wondering if the stress was brought on by the gourami and that caused the ich...

 

[Jwgoff7772]

And does the loss of color and rapid breathing on my two young pandas point to ich as well?

 

[Jwgoff7772]

and I guess my other question would be is still be ich without any white spots or without any other changes to the fish's appearance because I don't see any over activity in the Slime coat nor do I see any white spots at all. Nor do I see any difference in the gills or Gill plates or really anything physical. The symptoms are: all of them are swimming kind of erratically and are very skittish compared to normal. But not all of them are acting skittish or swimming erratically I would say maybe 60% of my fish are acting this way. And two out of the nine cories are losing their black colors being there pandas. But all of them are eating normally and in fact are still very active in the tank in or not really showing any signs of being lethargic. So the only real symptoms are at the flashing (which all my cories are flashing now), rapid (on only one young panda) Erratic swimming at times and being very skittish (about 5 put my 9 cories are very sketchy and are swimming erratically). And what I mean by swimming erratically is they are swimming very fast straight into the wall and also they are swimming to the top of the tank and then falling to the bottom very fast and they will also jerk to another Direction very quickly and at the slightest movement I make they take off in the opposite direction and Hide. Those are the symptoms and I'm seeing and I'm not seeing any physical symptoms at all other than the color fading on two of my four pandas and the rapid breathing on one. I'm on my way to get an adjustable heater at this time and I'm plan on raising the temperature a degree every 12 hours and then using 1 teaspoon of salt every 5 gallons. I see that the normal remedy is one tablespoon every 5 gallons but since I have fish that are sensitive to Salt I figured I would use a third of that dose. If any of my plans don't seem vizable please let me know. I do have medicine on hand. I have prazipro, seachem paraguard, API General cure, erythromycin, and fungus cure from API. I have not used any of these medications yet for fear of my fish acting badly to it in treating something they don't have. But I've had some of these medications on hand when I first started fish keeping in a couple I've bought since I noticed the symptoms but I've been too afraid to use since my fish have not shown any physical symptoms other than color fading and Rapid breathing. I really appreciate your info Bryon and Colin. Both of you have been quick to answer my concerns both now and in the past few weeks. Thanks again you guys

 

[Colin_T]

How slowly should I increase the temp and how much salt should I use since cories are more sensitive?

2-3C per day.

If it's whitespot, you don't need to add salt if you raise the temperature to 30C.
If you want to add salt, you can add 1-2 heaped tablespoons of rock salt (aquarium salt), sea salt, or swimming pool salt per 20 litres (5 gallons) of water.

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I have prazipro, seachem paraguard, API General cure, erythromycin, and fungus cure from API.

PraziPro contains Praziquantel, which is used to treat tapeworm and gill flukes and might treat some protozoan infections.

SeaChem Paraguard contains Malachite Green and will kill external protozoan infections like whitespot, trichodina, costia, chilodonella and velvet. Malachite Green is also carcinogenic so handle with care and wash up with soapy water after using it or working in the tank.

API General Cure contains Praziquantel (see above) and Metronidazole. Metronidazole is an anti-biotic designed for people and should not be used in aquariums unless the fish have a known internal infection that has not responded to other fish medications.

Erythromycin is an anti-biotic designed for people and should not be used in aquariums unless the fish have a known bacterial infection that has not responded to normal fish medications.

API Fungus Cure contains Victoria Green (aka Malachite Green) and Acriflavine. Acriflavine kills bacteria and fungus.

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You have a bunch of chemicals here that you don't need.

If you don't want to raise the temperature you could use a medication with Malachite Green. But if the fish don't have a protozoan infection, then you will be exposing them to a hazardous chemical for no reason. I would simply try raising the temperature for 2 weeks and see how they go.

 

[Byron]

Raising the temperature alone (meaning, not adding any substance) is all you should consider at this stage. As Colin noted, all of these chemicals will negatively impact the fish whether they work or not. Avoid additives as much as possible. Reducing stress is key.

 

[Jwgoff7772]

Understood. Most the meds I've already had in the last year or two. the only ones that I just acquired were the the paraguard and prazipro. But I'll take your guys advice and give the heat method a try for 2 weeks and we'll see what Happens. Thanks again for the advice guys

 

[Colin_T]

check the expiry date on the medications.

keep test kits and medications in a cool dark dry place to maximise their shelf life. Heat destroys them quickly and so does moisture.

I kept my test kits in a plastic icecream bucket in the fridge.

*NB* Make sure children and animals cannot get to them.

 

[Jwgoff7772]

Hey guys, so I'm dealing with another issue. The fins on one of my albinos are starting to dertiorate, not like rot when it looks tattered but almost as if a bite was taken out but my gourami is no longer in the tank and there are only cories in there. My wife just texted me as well and said the gills on my adult panda look damaged. I'll update with a picture of the pandas gills when i get home from work. but I'm wondering what all this could be. There are still flashing and still swimming erratically at times act as cories do when they are really frightened but they do it for no apparent reason. No white spots or any outward sign of ich at this time. Temp is at 86f since 05/17 as recommended. I did do a fish in cycle with these fish, I seeded the tank with old media from my cycled 20gal so my tank read only for nitrates after maybe 7-8 days so it cycled pretty fast. My ammonia got to .50 at one point which I used prime for every 24hrs and my nitrites got to .50 but only for 1 day and got turned into nitrates pretty quick. got ammonia readings for 4 out of those 7-8 days and did 50% water changes daily during my cycle. They never "showed" any signs of stress at all during the cycle: no gasping, they weren't lethargic, ate normally and didnt notice any issues with my fish unti 4 weeks after my cycle was done but even though they didnt "show" any signs of stress I'm now wondering in the "fish in cycle" harmed them. Any input is greatly appreciated. Thank you

 

[Colin_T]

If they are still rubbing on objects after 10 days at 30C (86F), then it's not white spot.

You can lower the temperature over a couple of days and then do a 75% water change and gravel clean each day for a week. If there is anything in the water, it should be diluted with the water changes.

The high temperature could be the cause of the flared/ red gills.

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Any ammonia, nitrite, nitrate (or any other chemicals) will harm the fish even if they are only exposed to it for a short period of time.

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Give them a couple of weeks and monitor them. If they continue to rub on objects, then Malachite Green or Copper can be used but be careful because they can kill fish and copper will kill invertebrates like snails and shrimp. Copper is safer than Malachite Green, and both medications will kill any protozoans in the water.

If you use medications, make sure they are suitable for scaleless fishes (catfish, loaches, eels). If you can't find a medication specifically for scaleless fish, then use a normal medication at half strength.

Give the fish a few weeks before treating so they can recover form the heat.

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To work out the volume of water in the tank:
measure length x width x height in cm.
divide by 1000.
= volume in litres.

When you measure the height, measure from the top of the substrate to the top of the water level.

There is a calculator/ converter in the "How To Tips" at the top of this page that will let you convert litres to gallons if you need it.

Remove carbon from the filter before treating or it will adsorb the medication and stop it working.

Wipe the inside of the glass down with a clean fish sponge. Do a 75% water change and gravel clean the substrate. Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it is added to the tank.

Clean the filter if it hasn't been done in the last 2 weeks. However, if the filter is less than 6 weeks old, do not clean it.

Increase surface turbulence/ aeration when using medications because they reduce the dissolved oxygen in the water.

 

[Jwgoff7772]

Sorry for the long reply. Im just trying to pick your brain at this point. I know it's hard to diagnose an issue unless your seeing everything for yourself. But I never allow my nitrates to get above 20ppm. I do a wc once a week at about 35% unless my nitrates get to 20 and if so I do wc but can usually go 10 days before it reaches even close to 20, so doing them every week keeps my fish from too much nitrate exposure. during my cycle my fish didnt show any signs of stress. In fact they were more active and acted more normal during the cycle than they are now as I dosed religiously with prime every 24hrs. In your opinion could the fishes reactions to the cycle have been delayed a full month or does ammonia and nitrite exposure usually impact the fishes health immediately? Im wondering even though the didnt seem stressed while my tank was cycling maybe the cycle still lowered their immune systems and allowed for disease to take hold or maybe these symptoms are stress itself (just thinking out loud). But the fins deteriorating at the edges is the first sign of real damage I've noticed other than the flashing, fading color and rapid breathing. The rapid breathing comes and goes, same with the fading color. Some days they will look very faded and then the next day or even later that night they will be darker than ever and look normal. All my fish are still very active and eat normally, the come over to their shrimp pellets within 60 seconds. I also made a garlic solution, minced half a garlic bulb and let it soak in hot water for 12hrs and then strained. I've been soaking the pellets for 5 mins before adding them and I've been doing this every other day since the flashing started . I'm wondering which ailment would cause: flashing, rapid breathing, color fading and now fin issues all at once. I've dealt with fin rot before with a betta ive had in the past and it doesnt really look like rot, the damage looks like clean cuts, almost like nipped fins but I didnt notice it before I moved my gourami so I'm assuming it's from disease or stress itself. I was assured by more experienced fish keepers that daily prime dosing would keep them safe while my tank was cycling but knowing what I know now I definitely would have done a fishless cycle. I didnt wanna put my fish through the stress of meds if I didnt have to but at this point it may come to that. Paraguard doeshave malachite green, do you think this would suffice? I also have kordon rid ich plus which as you know is malachite green . But the paraguard treats more than one disease where the rid ich only treats ich. Its just killin me to see something I'm responsible for under so much stress, just hoping it wasnt something directly I did, like the fish in cycle for example. Since I've noticed the stress I've been doing 50% wc every other day to keep the water clean as possible along with keeping carbon in my hob (which I normally dont use) and I've been changing the carbon every week to assure it's still filtering properly. But as your recommendation and since we dont believe its ich, which othet disease would the malachite green and copper treat? Again thank you colin for time.

 

[Colin_T]

Fish can and do suffer permanent damage from being in an aquarium that is cycling and has ammonia or nitrite readings, and high levels of nitrate also do damage. Most of the time, the damage is minor but it depends on the levels of ammonia, nitrite & nitrate that occur. High levels of these can shorten the life of the fish.

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I'm wondering which ailment would cause: flashing, rapid breathing, color fading and now fin issues all at once.

Poor water quality and chemicals in water will cause these symptoms.

Separately, gill flukes and white spot/ velvet can cause breathing problems.
Rubbing/ flashing on objects is caused by external protozoan infections or poor water quality.
Stress, poor water quality, diseases can cause changes in colour.
Fin damage is either caused by poor water quality or physical damage.

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Malachite Green (aka Victoria Green) and Copper will treat external protozoan infections like white spot, velvet, Costia, Chilodonella & Trichodina.

I would not add anything until the fish show some physical signs of disease.

Make sure any buckets you use are clean and free of soaps, chemicals or anything else.

Make sure there is nothing getting into the tank that irritates the fish. This might include anti-bacterial soaps used for washing your hands, creams, soaps, moisturising creams, oils, grease, paint, thinners, cigarette smoke, etc.

Make sure there are no perfumes, hair sprays, deodorants, air fresheners, candles, or anything else that is putting fumes into the room near the tank.

Just do big water changes for a couple of weeks and monitor the fish.

When you write long posts, try to use paragraphs because it's really hard to follow long posts without breaks

 

[Jwgoff7772]

Will keep the paragraphs in mind, sorry about that Colin.

I try very hard to keep the water quality at a healthy level. I have a wc and filter media cleaning program and also do weekly siphoning. I test my water with the api master kit every other day just as a precaution since my tank is still new. Only been set up since 03/03/19. Apart from when my tank has cycled my ammonia and nitrite has always been at 0. I notice when I clean one stage of my filter I may barely get a ammonia reading on the api master kit but I still get a 0 of free ammonia and 0 nitrites. I'll do wc every other day and run carbon to see of its anything in the water but I'm also very cautious about any contaminants no matter what they are, whether it be soap residue or any chemical other that water conditioner.

After saying that I may have found a possible issue with water quality...

When I was using a vac around my centerpiece decor (a large fake tree stump) I noticed my sand around the edges were black and smelled horrible of sulfur when it hit my wc bucket. I removed the decor and most of the foul smelling sand with my siphon and then dosed my tank with seachem stability in case alot of bb was lost. I do have alot of surface and bio media in my tank so I'm hoping didnt lose much. But it smelled so bad i was almost lightheaded and knew that couldnt be good for the fish so cleaned it up. After research I found it is bacteria causing hydrogen sulfide.

I did noticed a couple bubbles popped up when I cleaned around the edges and there was quite of bit of black sand underneath when I removed the large piece of decor. I also read that when it becomes an issue fish will gasp at the surface when to much gas is released but none of my fish has done that. But could this be causing this whole problem...?

I did (2) 50% water changes back to back as a attempt to flush my tank. Had always been afraid of a 75% wc fearing a ph shift since my kh is near 0. And noticed sometimes my ph is slightly different week to week. My ph out of tap Most of the time its 7.0, even after off gassing. but sometimes its 6.8, maybe even 6.6 out of tap some weeks.

I tried to find anyone reporting similar symptoms when being exposed to hydrogen sulfide but could not find any. The main symptoms I found were gasping at the surface and fish being lethargic. My fish haven't done either of those.

In your opinion could that be the cause of all my symptoms here?

Thanks again.