First of all, I would like to say...techen, this is a really nice post, very informative and certainly worth some more research on, I still want to challenge some of the comments because it's in my nature to explore every possible aspect...when I do disagree with certain things that are claimed
snazy said:
First of all, if you want scientific evidence, you should set a right example and provide some yourself for your own claims.
I don't need to, I haven't been throwing exact science methods etc etc.... I don't need to back up my claims because im exploring aspects to which I disagree on and observations in which I consider feasible from MY experiences.... your challenging me with the science side and for that reason alone, I would have preferred you to give me evidence so I can dissect the info myself.
snazy said:
Of course there is degradation, but it isn't just one bacteria responsible for it. There are many. There are certain types for example like Actinomycetes that are responsible for large organic compounds degradation. You want as much degradation as possible, as fast as possible, instead of the stuff growing mould around the place and spreading pathogenic organisms. Hence even why shrimp and snails are very good in a tank as they can break down the organics into smaller organics so other bacteria can degrade it further till it reaches it's final form ammonia that will feed the filter. All these processes play a role on the water column as well and availability and toxicity of other compounds like metals for example. Also of course, on the general water parameters like TDS, KH, GH, Ph, etc... So stripping the tank down and leaving just the filter bacteria, even if you keep most of the original water, will lead to water quality fluctuations that are stressful to fish and inverts.
I don't dismiss this but what it sounds like your stating is removing and clearing this surface bacteria only and not removing the waste aswell which that waste and beneficial bacteria is/was feeding on?.
Removing water/substrate > removes waste/toxicity of other compounds> resetting a tank while still maintaining a high level of the nitrogen cycle..... as to the general params TDS/KH/GH/PH.... leaving a tank to decrease these params can actually lead to serious problems, hence we do water changes to remove compounds which actually directly affect this, having a PH drop to low can actually directly affect the efficiency of the beneficial bacteria.... a few numbers I remember reading....
100% effectiveness at a pH of 8.3
7.0 efficiency is only50%,
6.5 only 30%,
6.0 only 10%. Below 6.0 the bacteria enter a state
of dormancy and cease functioning.
Yes I know ammonia ionizes to ammonium below 7 I think, but.... there is reports that it's still not completely safe for fish even if it isn't anywhere near as harmful directly as ammonia
You stated that the surface bacteria (wall/substrate etc) is essentially helping the tank..... I don't think I actually disagreed with this just merely disagreed with how much help it actually does when taking into context of what I originally stated.....
Ill try to explain (im not very good at explaining in a more scientific way, sorry
)......
This bacteria, both beneficial and waste removing bacteria are present almost everywhere within the tank (including the filter), removing the substrate, wiping surfaces etc, relives the need for that/a certain amount of that waste bacteria to be present as it wont have the waste to feast on (your removing the food source while removing substrate and wiping the surfaces)...however, it's still present within the filter, feeding on the waste the filter has drawn in..... this is then producing ammonia directly for the bacteria within the filter itself..... general load in the tank has been removed, so the need for that amount of bacteria of all kinds within the tank is redundant.... however the load within the filter will remain and as stated, be feeding off the ammonia the waste bacteria is producing within the filter..... ie, crude example, removing 25 fish out of the 30 in a fish in a tank, ammonia and other elements produced isn't enough to sustain both waste and beneficial bacteria that once were and dies off.
snazy said:
First of all, oxygen is hardly solubable in water. The amount of available oxygen doesn't depend on the filter only. It depends on the temperature, the surface area of the tank compared to water volume, how well agitated the surface is, or whether the tank has plants for example. If the tank is overpopulated, not necessarily overstocked, there will be more organic degradation, bio filter bacteria population, and more fish to consume this, so depending on all these factors there can be so much oxygen in the water at any given time,so it doesn't really matter that it goes through the filters, if the water isn't saturated with oxygen. Same applies for ammonia availability. In a lightly stocked tank you can have 30x flow and it still won't grow big bacterial population because there isn't ammonia enough to feed it. You said the same yourself, but you are looking at it just from a narrow point of view. Flow plays a role to deliver the chemical compounds needed for ammonia/nitrite/nitrAte conversion but if they ain't there, it just delivers water..
Your adding words to my comments, im fully aware how soluble oxygen is within the water column and what things can/will affect this... but this isn't what I stated.... I didn't state that the oxygen was dependant on the filter, what I stated was if there were enough flow within a certain tank, then the bacteria within the filter being starved is very unlikely if the dissolved oxygen in the tank was adequate.... as I stated, if there was limiting oxygen in the water (enough to stave bacteria)...then fish would be showing signs of gasping to surely?... don't fish require a hell of lot more o2 than bacteria would to survive?..... so what I stated was, the amount of oxygen running through the filter at any given time, would match the amount of o2 within the water column at any given time... as with ammonia availability, if there wasn't sufficient ammonia going through the filter, the filter would only colonise to the amount of ammonia being passed through.... if there was limited ammonia, then the amount of bacteria to deal with it wouldn't need to be more anyways..... im not sure where you were going with your comment but it didn't actually answer my original comment, only explained to me the process IF things were limited.... if it was both bacteria and fish would be suffering and that again would be the responsibility of the tank owner to address that problem... which in all honestly, it's pretty self explanatory if they were.
Also..... most waste bacteria do not need "free air" to survive, they are facultaive anerobes (sp).... they can also reproduce as quickly as 15 minutes so essentially removal isn't all hat important as they will colonise at a very quick rate.... however this would be why I mentioned that checking parameters for a 48hr period is actually good practice because it gives time to allow these waste bacteria to colonise enough to actually start producing ammonia in abundance to feed the potentially starving beneficial bacteria.
snazy said:
There's a lot of info out there about this. Research yourself. I don't have a laboratory if that's what you mean.
For example, filter media like the very famous Sera Siporax has very large surface area, so just a small amount of it is needed to biologically filter a large tank. If enough oxygen reaches is capable of reaching it, then you need a 2l with a fast pump to actually filter 400L aquarium but in reality it doesn't work like that.
"1 liter sera siporax® provides as much settling area for bacteria as approximately 34 liters of ceramic filter material. Therefore 1 liter sera siporax® ensures more than 200 liters of biologically clean aquarium water. sera siporax® is an excellent choice for small filters"
In all honestly I shouldn't have to, your making the claims..but, I have tried to find basic evidence of this both generally and scientifically and I haven't actually come across any.
snazy said:
First of all how did you measure how much bacteria is in the filter and how much in the substrate/decor in each tank? Why are you advising to check the parameters if you are claiming it's all in the filters and little anywhere else? It's like worrying about causing a spike by adding 1 fish to a tank with 10 fish. A mature tank shouldn't even have a hiccup at that even with 10% loss because the 90% surviving would theoretically divide themselves and compensate for that loss and a lot more in less than 12-24 hours, which is not enough time to even think of testing or worrying the fish won't handle if what you are saying is true. Filter bacteria can double in population in a period of less than 24 hours. So if you have stripped the tank down to just leaving the cycled filters, but you experience a small spike lasting 48 hours, then theoretically you've lost way more than 90% bacteria in the first place. For example, to get 25% bacteria back to 100% functionallity needed for the amount of bioload in a tank, it will in theory take 48hours(25% bacs will become 50% in the next 24 hours, which in turn will become 100% bacs in another 24 hours) So your statement that you can experience a 48 hours spike just proves that way more than 90% bacteria is lost by removing a healthy substrate and other decoration.
Advertising to check params ive explained somewhere above.... also beneficial bacteria has the ability to reproduce with a range time of 12-32 hours... so, having an air of caution is never a bad thing just incase it's does happen to be the latter, I never said that you needed and would definitely have a problem, what I stated was with any bare bones strip down, you are essentially removing a lot of stuff which as you say, feed the beneficial bacteria..however, because of the type of bare bones strip down this was all based on, your removing not only the bacteria of many kinds but also there food source.... no food source> not need for an element to feed off it.
snazy said:
This is a total speculation. The advise adding sensitive fish to tanks at least 6 months old has nothing to do with the Ph, tds, kh, etc...
But I could say your method is also speculation..... simply because both ways could result in the end product of a fish death... both unexplained essentially.... however, I have done both methods many many times, never had a fatality nor a drastic rise in ammonia etc etc and ive ran fish rooms with 30+ tanks.... I also have done bare bones strip downs and have had cory's breed many times non stop for days afterwards..... not so much sensitive fish but if this affected them as badly as your stating it could, I doubt very much they would continuously breed near enough straight after...... after all I would imagine a rainy season theoretically would work in a very similar way..... a vast amount of clean water(could be as much as a 60-90% increase) changing parameters and temperature quite drastically including a drastic rise in waste due to more wildlife, rotting knocked down tree,s uprooted plants, sediment be disturbed...general waste etc etc, but the ecosystem thrives..... in the wild this would be there time to breed, if it affected ecosystems this much, wouldn't it have a diverse effect rather than a life creating environment?
snazy said:
First of all, I need to know whether you are claiming whether a cycled filter on its own provides a mature enviroment or a tank that has been cycled for over 6 months. No one here tried to claim you need to wait 5 years for a tank to mature.
Stripping the tank down and claiming you don't need any of that bacteria is just totally irresponsible. As I tried to explain above it depends on the tank and setup where the bacteria has settled and even the type of bacteria, including the ammonia/nitrite bacteria types can differ from tank to tank. Waste and mulm on its own is not harmful to fish at all. I feed mulm to my fry and actually fed my shrimplets too with it. It contains very nutritious microorganisms I can't grow myself otherwise. What's harmful, is if there isn't enough bacteria and microorganisms to degrade the waste, whether poop, degrading driftwood, leaves, etc.. to a level where it can be picked up by the ammo bacs, and instead it grows pathogenic bacteria and fungi on it. Also, not all waste is high in nitrogen compounds and it doesn't all release ammonia via additional processes.
If you are claiming that a sterile tank with wiped clean walls and bottom and cycled filter is better for fish due to the lack of waste, people have tried it on fry tanks and it works to an extent if you clean it several times a day, which is not practical. But then again there is evidence that such tanks have harmful effect on fish like corydoras for example, because a bare tank, which in theory should be cleaner, tends to develop a harmful biofilm on the glass that can harm fry that are in constant contact with it, such as corydoras fry and it's recommended to keep a layer of substrate instead. These are completely different type of setups again, hence we can't generalize.
Also, those ammo bacs in the filter like a bit of waste in there to have available ammo at all time.
And I understand that this is just a discussion and there's nothing personal. I mean no hard feelings either. But I just refuse to go further. Everyone has enough information to try and research for themselves and make up their own mind. At the end, experience will teach you the hard way, no matter what you do.
No, again you have not read what I have stated, I wouldn't advise wiping literally every surface in a tank down incuding décor etc with out moving some if not all of the food source these were feeding on (basically a huge amount of decaying and rotting waste).... this obviously would cause problems...however, this was regarding a bare bones strip down which essentially makes a sterile environment in which life has to form again... ie, clean walls, clean substrate...but.... still maintaining a high level of waste bacteria and beneficial bacteria via the filter... which essentially is now dealing with the new much less load of the tank...however, it may not be slightly enough to deal with the load completely until it levels itself back out.... another reason to why I advise people just monitor params as a precaution.
Again techen, it certainly was an awesome post and ive actually learnt more from doing a little research on the methods your stating.....
and to TallTree01.... I have to agree, differences of opinion is certainly no bad thing and nothing to get peed off over, we learn at the same time as helping others (hopefully
)
OP, glad your all sorted with the swap over and can grats again
/www.biology.ed.ac.uk/research/groups/jdeacon/microbes/winograd.htm
