Coldwater Fish For Small Unheated Tank

[MudMinnow]

Hi all.
 
I have an empty tank that I'd like to put a few coldwater fish in. However, I only have a small 160 litre tank, so can't keep the obvious goldfish. Not only is it only 160l, but it's also a narrow tall tank, only 30cm deep. I don't like the idea of fish that are too far from natural forms, so even if the fancier goldfish don't grow so big, they aren't my preference. I thought I might be able to keep a small school of white cloud mountain minnows, but would prefer a fully unheated tank. As we don't have the house heating on all night, temperatures may fall very low, and the water may go below the 5 degrees Celcius that it's said that the WCMMs bear. I don't now if it's possible to get a heater that I could set to 8 degrees or some random minimum temperature.
 
I'm interested in whether it's possible to obtain some european minnows. But the problem there might be if the water gets too warm in the summer. Also, where would I obtain some from? I would prefer to buy tank bread fish rather than fish from the wild.
 
What other fish are both available and suitable for cold water tanks?
 
Edit: I didn't realise this is primarily (it seems) a US forum. Hence I need to point out that I'm in the UK.

 

[MudMinnow]

I can't edit the above post.
 
This shop, in a town not too far from me, sells Rainbow Shiners and Rosy Bitterlings, as well as WCMM and some other fish. Both of these would require a heater to prevent the water temperature falling too low.

 

[the_lock_man]

WCMMs are zippy little things, they aren't recommended for narrow tanks, you really need a 4footer.
 
Most heaters with inbuilt thermostats are for tropical use, so they won't go down as far as 8C, however you can get unregulated heaters, to which you can attach a standard room thermostat, so you could work it that way. That said, if your house gets that cold in winter, then I suggest you look into double glazing and cavity wall insulation.
 
I think you're overly worrying about temperature, to be honest. How many fish survive winters and summers in ponds - indoors, temperatures are more stable.
 
UNfortunately, I know nothing about european fish, so can't help you on that one.

 

[MBOU]

Are you sure about your house getting that cold? I know our house feels flipping icy cold at night in the winter, we don't have heating on at night and I have to keep an eye on temperatures for my chameleons sake (his basking lights are all off at night and so I bubblewrap his vivarium in the winter). But even then, the coldest I have ever seen it was 10.7 degrees inside and to be fair, it was -13 outside! Generally it doesn't get much colder than 13-14 degrees Celsius....
 
Alternatively, the fish you are looking at are all subtropical, why not just stick a heater in there on the lowest setting which is generally around 18-20 degrees Celsius and well within the range then you don't have to worry!
 
What are the exact dimensions of the tank and what kind of filtration have you got?
 
If the tank is a sensible size, I think a shoal of WCMMs would look great in there, they are nowhere near as active and zippy and prone to aggression as Danios tend to be. I had a shoal of 20 in 125L (no other fish and a very good external filter) and they looked stunning! If you want variation then there are the Gold WCMMs and the Veiltail WCMMs too

 

[MudMinnow]

Thank you both for the replies.
 
The tank is 120cm long x 30cm deep/wide x 38cm high (4ft x 1ft x 15in high). The fltration is a Fluval 4 internal filter, but it's a slightly old model with the rectangular foam inserts. The tank used to have Malawi cichlids in it, which I bought in the 1990s and had continued until this year until the heater failed in the middle of winter

 
I've been looking at temperature controllers such as these ones: http/www.h2oaquatics.co.uk/heating-cooling/temperature-controllers/atc-300-2-channel-heater-temperature-controller-with-timer
 
My thinking was tto use a heater with a thermostat as that would be a failsafe aganst the temperature controller failing and sticking 'on'. The fish being coldwater would be a failsafe aginst the temperature controller or heater failing removing heating frm the tank. The kitchen does get evil cold in the depths of winter, and since 10C doesn't feel too cold to me, I'd guess it gets colder than that. I haven't measured the temperature there over winter, and of course can't now. I've never seen water in the kitchen freeze over, however.
 
I think that the Rosy Bitterlings are found in Japan, both as a native subspecies but also the chinese/taiwanese subspecies as an invasive import. I've lived in Japan, and it got pretty impressively cold in the winter, and also very hot in the summer. But the species can't survive a British winter outdoors, or we wouldn't be able to buy them here in the UK. http/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosy_bitterling
 
If the shiners are subtropical, perhaps I should stick with the bitterlings.

 

[MBOU]

How about trying to source some stickleback? The males especially are stunning!

 

[MudMinnow]

How about trying to source some stickleback? The males especially are stunning!

 
An interesting idea. But they are very aggressive, and the males hold territories much larger than my tank. We've observed them in the wild quite often.

 

[DerpPH]

Try something like some small perch.

 

[MudMinnow]

Try something like some small perch.

 
Thanks for the suggestion. However, Perch will grow big, too big for the tank.
 
I appreciate the suggestions that have been made, I hope I'm not responding to them too negatively. But small adult size is definitely on my list.
 
The more I think about it, the more the Rosy Bitterling seem a good option. The rainbow shiners have 300 fry per spawn. I wouldn't want to end up with huge numbers of fry that I can't do anything with. Dunno if they'd eat the eggs if I just leave them in the tank. It seems that the bitterlings won't breed unless I put a freshwater mussel in the tank. And even then, only have small numbers of fry. When I had small mbuna, I had no problem giving them away when they bred, but don't know if there would be willing takers for fish like the shiners.

 

[MBOU]

Will the sticklebacks live as a harem? One or two males with lots of females? I seem to remember about 4 or 5 years ago I stocked stickleback and they kept spawning in our 40L tanks. Ended up splitting them down to 1-2 males and as many females as possible as I had to put them somewhere and they seemed happy enough like that but I don't know much about them as a species.... though I know there are several species  around..
 
That said... I am always getting asked for Stickleback for small ponds and I can't source them.. I think you'd be able to rehome any fry easily enough! Even if just to a shop in the end! Worth asking? I loved the males when they went all red

 

[MudMinnow]

Will the sticklebacks live as a harem? One or two males with lots of females? I seem to remember about 4 or 5 years ago I stocked stickleback and they kept spawning in our 40L tanks. Ended up splitting them down to 1-2 males and as many females as possible as I had to put them somewhere and they seemed happy enough like that but I don't know much about them as a species.... though I know there are several species  around..
 
That said... I am always getting asked for Stickleback for small ponds and I can't source them.. I think you'd be able to rehome any fry easily enough! Even if just to a shop in the end! Worth asking? I loved the males when they went all red

 
I've seen males chasing females away in ditches, but if you've kept them in 40L tanks, surely 160l would do. There are at least three spined and nine spined sticklebacks. I think there are 10 spined and even 15 spined sticklebacks, but not all of these may be native to the UK. What did you feed yours on, as I've heard that wild-caught ones will only eat live food. I'm a little bit hesitant to take them from the wild as I feel that wild fish should remain in the wild. But, on the other hand, if I go to nearby meadows after flooding, there are tons of them in small puddles that are rapidly drying up and they are all about to die. I wouldn't feel so bad taking a few of those. Wild-caught fish though may carry diseases and parasites, which would be an issue.
 
As far as I know, it's legal to take sticklebacks as they are not protected, and they are not covered by fishing laws as larger fish have. Captive bred fish would be better, but I don't (yet?) know of any sources for them. I think that the shop that is/was in Great Portland Street in London had some in the 1990s, but I'm not sure.
 
Edit: This online supplier sells sticklebacks. http/www.discountfish.co.uk/BUY-COLDWATER-FISH-ONLINE.html They also sell 'Golden Minnows', which on searching further appear to be the same as Rosy Fathead Minnows. I thought that these were on the list of banned fish which cannot be kept. Or at least can't be kept without a licence.

 

[MBOU]

I'm not entirely sure on the legality behind removing stickleback from the wild etc but it wouldn't be *too* difficult to find someone to ask, Defra or Cefas or whoever deals with it all. That said.. if they are dying... I doubt anyone will care... releasing them would be what would cause worries.
 
I doubt the wild ones carry any more or less parasites than captive bred, both can be treated for parasites (swear by Kusuri Discus Wormer/flubendazole).
 
And as for banned fish, would have to check but there are a good few species that require a license to sell but not keep.... sturgeon and sterlets are on that list I know, I believe Grass Carp have been moved to the list as well and I *think* some of the minnow/bitterling species fall under this requirement too. 

 

[MudMinnow]

European Bitterling definitely is on the list, but it's the only Bitterling I've found that is. Here's a buying guide I found on ebay which lists some fish. It doesn't say which are banned and which can be kept on various types of licence.
 
http/www.ebay.co.uk/gds/Fish-illegal-Take-care-from-illegal-shops-in-EBAY/10000000012840161/g.html
 
 

> Abramis ballerus, Blue bream
> Acipenser sp., Huso sp., Scaphirhynchus sp., Pseudoscaphirhynchus sp. and hybrids (sterlets and sturgeons)
> Alburnoides bipunctatus, Schneider
> Ambloplites rupestris, Rock bass
> Ameiurus sp. (coldwater ameiurid catfishes, including the bullhead, Ameirus nebulosus)
> Aspius aspius, Asp
> Chalcaburnus chalcoides,
Danubian bleak
> Chrondrostoma nasus, Nase
> Chrondrostoma toxostoma, Toxostome or French nase
> Ctenopharyngodon idella, Grass carp
> Hypophthalmichthys molitrix,
Silver carp
> Ictalurus sp. (coldwater ictalurid catfishes, including the Channel catfish, Ictalurus punctatus)
> Leuciscus souffia, Blageon
> Lota lota, Burbot
> Micropterus salmoides, Large mouthed bass
> Mylopharyngodon piceus, Black
or Snail-eating carp
> Oncorhynchus mykiss (Rainbow
trout or Steelhead)
> Oncorhynchus sp. (Pacific trout)
> Polyodon spathula and Psephurus gladius (paddlefishes)
> Pseudorasbora parva, Clicker barb
or Topmouth gudgeon
> Rhodeus sericeus, Bitterling
> Salmo salar (Non-anadromous, landlocked Salmon)
> Silurus sp. (coldwater silurid catfishes including the Wels,
Silurus glanis)
> Stizostedion sp., Zander
> Vimba vimba, Vimba
 
Which ones are in the amendment for England?
> Barbus sp. (Barbel species, excluding the native Barbus barbus)
> Catostomus commersoni, Common white sucker
> Channa argus, Northern snakehead
> Coregonus sp. (Whitefishes, excluding the native species C. lavaretus and C. albula)
> Cycleptus elongatus, Blue sucker
> Cyprinella (Notropsis) lutrensis, Red shiner or Rainbow dace
> Esox sp. (Pikes, excluding the native E. lucius)
> Hucho sp. (Danubian Salmon or Taimen)
> Lepomis sp. (Pumpkinseeds,
sunfish, sunbass, crappies, bluegills
and other Lepomis sp.)
> Leucaspius delineatus, Motherless minnow
> Misgurnus fossilis, Weather loach
> Morone sp. (Striped bass, White bass and Morone hybrids)
> Myxocyprinus asiaticus, Chinese sailfin sucker
> Perca sp. (Perch species excluding the native P. fluviatilis)
> Phoxinus (Chrosomus) eos, Northern red-belly dace
> Phoxinus (Chrosomus) erythrogaster, Southern red-belly dace
> Pimephales promelas, Rosy red minnow or Fathead minnow
> Rhinichthys atratulus, Blacknose dace
> Salmo marmoratus (Marbled trout)
> Salvelinus sp. (Charr species, including the American Brook trout, but excluding the native Salvelinus alpinus)
> Umbra krameri, European mudminnow
> Umbra pygmaea, Eastern mudminnow
> Zacco platypus, Pale chub

 
BTW: This is a picture of the 'motherless minnow' which is on the list. While it's a different fish, this is similar to the situation I've found some stranded sticklebacks in. It's shocking how long the fish stay alive flapping in the mud as the pond dries out.
 
http/upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/LeucaspiusDelineatus1.jpg

 

[DrRob]

Are we mainly US? Probably depends when you're online, I think we're fairly well spread across the two in general, with a covering for the rest of the world.
 
Have you looked at the red shiner. Your dealer will need a licence (you won't, if I remember correctly), but they're one of the prettier options for cold water tanks.

 

[MBOU]

Yeah looking at that list, I believe that list is then further divided into "cant have's" and "seller needs a license so imports into country can be recorded". Because we have stocked Rainbow Dace/Shiners but they are only allowed in tanks, not ponds. Same with the such like as Weather Loach (although scientific name given there for weather loach is for a different species I thought?!). As with sturgeon and sterlets,retailers need a license to import and sell them but the buyer does not. However others on that list like the obvious Wels Catfish etc are not to be sold at all.
 
Somewhere there will be other lists.