Cheap co2 systems

[Alien Anna]

Hi Everyone,
I feel that the limiting factor on my plant growth is probably CO2 (I have a lot of hair algae and a heavily planted aquarium). Also, I have a high pH which I'd like to reduce.

I've been having a look at CO2 systems, but they seem dreadfully expensive. The CO2 Floramat System for sale on the Java Plants site is one of the cheapest I've seen - but is it any good?

I looked at one of the DIY systems and I suspect that works out pretty expensive over the long-term.

Do I even need CO2? I have a lot of fish and they surely produce quite a lot of CO2. OTOH, more experienced people keep going on about how CO2 is great for a planted aquarium. What do you think?

 

[Rose]

Tell me everything you can about your set up. Things like how often you do water changes, how much each time. Number of fish, type of fish. Size tank (in gallons), what do you have for a substrait? What are your water peramiters (ammonia, nitrItes, nitrAtes, pH, phosphates if you have a tester for it)? WHat kinds of plants do you have? Do they have any new leaves since you put them in? How long has the plants been in the tank? What type of lighting, how many watts total? What type of bulb and the rating if you know? Do you add ferilizer or any kind of addititves for the plants? If so what do you add, how much and how often? How often do you feed the fish in the tank and how much? Is it by a window does it get any sunlight? How long has this tank been up and running? Did you cycle it before you put plants in or after the plants were in? Names of plants and how many of each? I think that's all I'll need but I'm sure to come up with more questions.

CO2 is a matter of preference and how hard they want to work on their tank. I have what is known as Low tech tanks. Meaning I have low to mid lighting, no CO2, hardy but fast growing plants that eat the excess nutrients. Once I have the other info then I can help you figure out if you need CO2 or not. Rose

 

[Alien Anna]

Tell me everything you can about your set up.  Things like how often you do water changes, how much each time.  Number of fish, type of fish.  Size tank (in gallons), what do you have for a substrait?  What are your water peramiters (ammonia, nitrItes, nitrAtes, pH, phosphates if you have a tester for it)?  WHat kinds of plants do you have?  Do they have any new leaves since you put them in?  How long has the plants been in the tank?  What type of lighting, how many watts total?  What type of bulb and the rating if you know?  Do you add ferilizer or any kind of addititves for the plants?  If so what do you add, how much and how often?  How often do you feed the fish in the tank and how much?  Is it by a window does it get any sunlight?  How long has this tank been up and running?  Did you cycle it before you put plants in or after the plants were in?  Names of plants and how many of each?  I think that's all I'll need but I'm sure to come up with more questions.

CO2 is a matter of preference and how hard they want to work on their tank.  I have what is known as Low tech tanks.  Meaning I have low to mid lighting, no CO2, hardy but fast growing plants that eat the excess nutrients.  Once I have the other info then I can help you figure out if you need CO2 or not.  Rose

Hi Rose,
"Tell me everything you can about your set up."

OK, here goes! Firstly, this is a matured tank (over 10 years old). When I acquired it, I shifted the whole lot (gravel, filter, water, fish and plants) to their new location, so it was well cycled. Since then I've had to do a total strip-down and replace all the gravel (it hadn't been cleaned for years and was like compost), but I kept the matured filter media so I've not had any ammonia or nitrite to contend with.

Now to your questions:
* "how often you do water changes, how much each time"
Currently 20-30% every 2 days, because I've had a problem with nitrates (now fixed) and then I had a problem with pH (it comes out of the tap at 9.0). I've been gradually swapping my water for peat-filtered water to lower my pH and get that Amazon look.

* "Number of fish, type of fish"
OK, the cherry barbs are under an eviction notice, as are my black neon tetras. My current stock is:
4x Pearl Gouramis (immature, 2 to be evicted)
4x Black Neon tetras (to be evicted)
3x Beckford's pencilfish
5x Cardinal tetras
6x Cherry barbs (to be evicted)
6x Rummy-nosed tetras
1x Bristle-nosed plec
1x Gold barb (tiny)
2x Golden apple snails

* " Size tank"
Officially, 110L (approx. 25 US gallons, 21 UK gallons). It's a Juwel corner tank so has slightly more swimming room to a rectangular tank (52" at its longest point).

* "what do you have for a substrait?"
3mm sandstone gravel (pH neutral). Plants are mostly in small pots.

* "water peramiters (ammonia, nitrItes, nitrAtes, pH, phosphates"
pH 7.0 (hope to get it lower still eventually)
KH 10 (also hope to get lower)
GH 14
N02 0
NH4 0
NO3 10 (and dropping)

I haven't tested for phosphate, but that is something I intend to do, due to the algae. Tap water came out with 75ppm nitrates the other day, so it wouldn't surprise me if it's also high in phosphate.

* "WHat kinds of plants do you have? Do they have any new leaves since you put them in? How long has the plants been in the tank?"

5x Giant vallis
1x Dwarf vallis
2x Amazon swords
1x Dwarf Amazon sword
1x Java fern (plus plantlets)
2x Java moss
2x Anubias

They are all producing new leaves. I bought the moss and anubias but the rest were in the tank when I was given it. However, they weren't thriving. I'd like to get some of those feathery, Amazon plants to replace the Java fern, and use the fern in my cichlid tank (although the rate it's reproducing, I'll probably be able to do both tanks). I've recently split my dwarf sword plant and put half in another tank.

*"What type of lighting, how many watts total? What type of bulb and the rating if you know?"
I have two 15W Sun-glows with light-doubling reflectors (I haven't got a lot of options with lights since it's a Juwel tank). I've lose the box, but I got them because their spectrum seemed best suited to plant growth (very yellow light).

*"Do you add ferilizer or any kind of addititves for the plants? If so what do you add, how much and how often?"
I give my plants a dose of Flora-Boost liquid plantfood, once a week. It's really made a huge difference.

*"How often do you feed the fish in the tank and how much?"
I feed twice a day, a couple of pinches of flake, dried bloodworms, frozen daphnia, pellets, frozen peas or whatever I fancy that day. It is usually enough for them to gobble it in under 3 minutes!

*"Is it by a window does it get any sunlight?"
Very little natural daylight (hence the tubes).

*"How long has this tank been up and running? "
(See above)

*"Did you cycle it before you put plants in or after the plants were in?"
Yes

The tank is well cycled and the Juwel filter colum seems to work well. Despite adding new fish, I haven't seen any kind of ammonia or nitrite spike yet. I feel I've covered all bases for my plants and they are growing quite well (my anubias is doing particularly well). However, if I can get my plants to really thrive perhaps they can out-compete all that algae (although the algae isn't as bad as it was and is possibly a hang-over for all those years when the nitrate levels were 250ppm+).

 

[Rose]

Here's the deal with the hair algae. It's there cuz you don't have any fast growing plants to use up the excess nutrients you are putting into the tank (the fertilizer, fish food, fish poop). I would stop useing the fertilizer for a while (at least till you get the green algae under control). Get a lot (and I mean a LOT) of fast growing plants and put them in the tank. Under those conditions they should take off real quick. Once you get the algae under control then we can figure out if you need CO2 or not. I highly doubt you do. While I'm at it I want you to read this article on algae. This will help you figure out how to control it and then we can go from there. Rose

 

[Alien Anna]

Hi Rose,
what you are saying makes sense given that my algae problem has really re-surfaced since I pulled out the elodea that was making the tank look a mess.

I was not surprised to have had an algae problem before I did the strip-down (my nitrate levels were literally off the scale, and higher plants can't use nitrate if it's too high - it actually inhibits their growth). But I couldn't work out why the algae had taken off recently. My nitrate levels are actually falling, but with nitrates coming out of the tap as high as 75ppm, it's very much a constant battle to keep it down.

The only thing is that the plant food says on it specifically that it does not encourage algae (and also that it is nitrate and phosphate free). It's Flora-Boost by Interpet. Before I used it, my plants were turning yellow and brown and dying. Now they are healthy green, so you'll understand why I'm reluctant to stop using it.

I think it could simply be that all my plants are slow growing. I need to research a fast-growing, Amazonian type plant. Any suggestions?

My new ancistrus is doing a good job too - the snails are great at keeping gravel clean, but aren't keen on hair algae. This little guy has been cleaning off all my plants, however, which is great.

 

[Great Lakes]

Once upon a time I had my 90gal planted heavy. I was using a home made CO2 set up and saw better growth and stronger color. I love swords, and they seemed to do well. But, I am the oddball, doing everything lazy and/or by the seat of my pants. If you ever want to know the easy sort of right way to do things. I'm your guy :laugh:
If you want planned scientific well detailed info...well.. 8)

 

[Macquatic]

If you go the CO2 route Anna, you may be able to get gas refills from your local pub or someone you know in the trade. Mac.

 

[Micheal Deason]

Seachem makes a product for scrubs who are not yet fit to run CO2 systems called Flourish Excel. If dosed daily this liquid concoction can be a somewhat effective and easy alternative.
Hair algae is easily remedied by proper fish choices. Do your research.

 

[Alien Anna]

Hair algae is easily remedied by proper fish choices. Do your research

I have and there are no fish that eat the stuff (in any quantities) that are compatible with my other residents. However, the hair algae is dying back since my plants started to take off and since it is only growing on my cork background, it isn't even a cosmetic problem. I just worried in case it started taking over.

Just as a matter of interest, what would you consider a "proper fish choice" in this case?

 

[Micheal Deason]

Even the most novice should be aware of this creature. I am shocked you are not and seriously question your ability to maintain a healthy planted tank.

http/www.aquabotanic.com/SAEarticle.htm

 

[adeyc]

And how does a novice find things out if they don't ask things or learn from mistakes.

 

[William]

SAEs are actually very dangerous fish to keep in a community tank. I am suprised you do not know this.  They soon develop a taste for sucking the protective slim coat of the other fish in the tank leading to infections and deaths.

 

[Micheal Deason]

William has posted totally eroneous information regarding the true SAE. Numerous studies, along with my own extensive research and experience conclude the SAE is a completely harmless species and safe for any community tank. Mild aggresion is the only possible negative but this is rare, usually mild and more common in their close relations.
Ottos are a very poor choice for hair algea. William is attempting to dispute an obvious fact for the sake of heightening his sense of importance on this forum.

 

[Rose]

Michael do tell where you are getting all your info from. I would very much like to read the same literature you are reading so that I too can come up with the same oppinions you do. I would like to broaden my horrizens regarding this particular fish (the SAE in case you were wondering.) So if you wouldn't mind could you pass along some of your reading material to me. I would appreciate it.

Now as to the truth of the SAE's they are very territorial and the DO eat the slime coat off other fish. They DO get very aggressive as they get older and are not for community tanks.

Ottos are for community tanks for some algae not all. They mostly eat the Diatom algae (brown alage). They will mind their own buisness and are not a bother to other fish.

For a community fish that has the ability to eat the hair algae get some black mollies. Do not feed them for a few days as this will cause them to want to eat the hair algae. You can also get some Rosie barbs. They too will do a good job at eating the hair algae. Every once in a while the Cherry barb will eat some hair algae but not often. Those are some alternative fish to use instead of the SAE.

Now Michael if you do not know what you are talking about I'm asking you to refrain from posting incorrect info in my forum. I will call you on it every time and it'll get embarasing for you. I'm also interested in what kind of setups you have for your fish and what makes you think you are a expert as you have called your self. Also how long have you been keeping fish? Have a good nite Michael. Rose

 

[Alien Anna]

Even the most novice should be aware of this creature. I am shocked you are not and seriously question your ability to maintain a healthy planted tank.

http/www.aquabotanic.com/SAEarticle.htm

I've was just interested to know what fish you were talking about. If you meant an SAE, I don't know why you didn't say so in your initial post.

Anyway, I am of course aware of SAEs (although I am a relative newbie to the hobby, so there is a lot I don't know yet - one of the reasons I'm on this group). I saw some last week and I definitely want one some time. However, I don't think an SAE would be suitable in my main tank, with its current set-up. I understand they are quite territorial, and also quite large (my main tank is a heavily populated 110L tank).

Thanks for the link, btw.