Ask Questions About Cycling

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I have a seasoned Filter sitting in Tank Water. Is there a way to preserve the filter?
Just keep it submerged in the tank water...it'll survive quite a long while without actually needing to be fed fresh ammonia.
...Or, when you siphon the mulm from the bottom of a tank, stick some of it in with the submerged filter.
 
Today was Day 3 - my first tests after Done 1. The ammonia registered at 4ppm. I'm using API Master kit.
On Day 1, I did the ammonia calculator and tried my best to find a measuring device that would get 0.87ml into the tank, but I ended up having to add probably 3 times that much before I got a 3ppm reading. I waited at least 30 minutes between each addition. Now, 3 days later I'm seeing a reading of 4ppm. I remembered @Rocky998 telling me to just dump my entire bottle of API Quick Start into my 10gal tank (because, why not!?), so I poured 1/2 of the bottle in. Then I came across @TwoTankAmin 's chart that says I should do a 25% water change to get the ammonia from 4ppm to 3ppm.

QUESTION - Does pouring 1/2 a bottle of Quick Start in there get me out of having to do a 25% water change? I feel like I have too many factors going on to decide what my next move should be. I don't mind doing the water change, but if I don't have to...
Thanks!
 
The reason for not going above 3 ppm is to keep the nitrite level down. That 4 ppm ammonia will be converted into 10.8 ppm nitrite and a level of 15 to 16 ppm stalls the cycle. It won't take much more ammonia to exceed 15 ppm nitrite.
I would do that 25% water change. Then when it comes to adding the next 3 ppm dose, use 3/4 of the total you added the first time, and 1/3 of that for the snack dose.
 
Dr. Tim uses the nitrogen scale, You must multiply his numbers as follows: Ammonia x 1.29 - Nitrite x 3. 28 - Nitrate x 4.43.

API quick start does not contain the bacteria that will colonize your tank longer term. For one, the bacteria in sw and fw are different. There should be a different product for each. Use Dr. Tim's One and Only or Tetra SafeStart Plus. They are essentially the same product and they both identify the exact bacteria they cintain. Almost nobody else does this because there is a patent on Nitrospira and the method for detecting is that is shared by Dr. Hovanec and Marineland. The latter was purchased by a conglomerate which also owned Tetra. The use of the patent was given to Tetra to create SafeStart and SafeStart Plus.

Dr. Hovanec was a major researcher early on in the identification of the actual bacteria at work in tanks doing nitrification. I will confess to having read all of the relevant papers here as well as the patent applications granted for cycling related bacteria and probes to detect them.

However, there a number of products out there which do not contain the proper bacteria in that they will be replaced when the tank is fully cycled. What the products can do is handle higher levels of ammonia and nitrite than will be in ones tank longer term. Those bacteria will be replaced by ones similar to what are in the Dr. Tim's and Tetra bottles.

I switched to using ammonium chloride for fishless cyling about 10 years ago maybe a bit longer. I have it in dry form and use my RO/DI water and a triple beam scale to mix it when needed. But I initially used the original Dr. Tin;s ammonium chloride when is was more concentrated- 1 drop/gal. instead of the current 4 drops to produce the desired 3.6 ppm of ammonia. The powdered stuff is was cheaper but comes in a large amount only- 500 gm from Fritz.

Use 4.5 g (approximately 1 level tsp) per 100 U.S. gallons (380 L). This dose will create an ammonia concentration of approximately 4 ppm.
So the jug I have can produce 4 ppm of ammonia on the nitrogen scale (5.12 on the total ion scale) for 11,112 U.S. gallons (42,222 L). I will die before Iuse it all but it was still cheaper than the Dr. tim;s or other bottlles of liquid ammonium chloride.

If you cannot find cheap pipettes, look for a baby doser at a Pharmacy or go to Amazon and enter "baby doser syringe" in the search box. Or enter "plastic ml pipette". These are great for dosing ferts and other liquids as well.

Have a lot of fun and enter this in the Amazon search "dr tims ammonium chloride"
 
I don't know if that message was for me, @TwoTankAmin , but I appreciate the info on the bacteria. It's been awhile since my brain was in science mode (pre-med student in previous life) but I get what you're saying. I'm still having issues with getting my ammonia to 3ppm, so I'll get a baby dropper and also some Tetra bacteria. I'm going to update my Journal with what I've done in the last few weeks. It's all over the place and I'm frustrated. I feel like I'll be better off starting from scratch a third time with more precise ammonia measurements and better bacteria.
I seriously don't know how I kept fish alive all those years considering how much trouble I'm having trying to get these small 10 gallons to perform. I understand the biology behind your fishless cycle despite not being able to replicate it. It's like in baking - precision is crucial.
I appreciate everyone's expertise and helpfulness in TFF!
 
I don't know if that message was for me, @TwoTankAmin , but I appreciate the info on the bacteria. It's been awhile since my brain was in science mode (pre-med student in previous life) but I get what you're saying. I'm still having issues with getting my ammonia to 3ppm, so I'll get a baby dropper and also some Tetra bacteria. I'm going to update my Journal with what I've done in the last few weeks. It's all over the place and I'm frustrated. I feel like I'll be better off starting from scratch a third time with more precise ammonia measurements and better bacteria.
I seriously don't know how I kept fish alive all those years considering how much trouble I'm having trying to get these small 10 gallons to perform. I understand the biology behind your fishless cycle despite not being able to replicate it. It's like in baking - precision is crucial.
I appreciate everyone's expertise and helpfulness in TFF!
I'm also cycling a 10 gallon. I found that the amount of ammonia I use is 1 1/2 ML of a 10% ammonia solution... I would also be careful when using bacteria because it will look like it cycles the tank in 3 days but its just the bacteria settling in...
 
BkkprGal- take a deep breath and relax. The biggest cause of cycling issues is overthinking everything. Just a basic understanding of how it all works makes it a lot easier to cycle.

1. Cycling is a process, its take the time it takes. So the first skill needed to be good at cycling is patience.
2. Cycling is a microscopic process. We cannot see any of it. We have to rely on testing to know what is going on.

Also, you can use Dr. Tim's or Tetra. I prefer the Dr. Tim's, he is the one who actually dicovered it all while he was the head of the Marineland labs. For this reason Dr. T and Marineland share the patent rights. When Marineland was bought by a conglomerate which also owned Tetra, they transferred the bacterial production to Tetra and called it Safe Start. While the two products have diverged a bit over the years, they still contain the same bacteria.

The patents cover both the bacteria and the methods for detecting them which is why they contain Nitrospira and other starter products do not. The competitors are forced to use Nitrobacter which is a strain of nitrite oxidizers which thrive at much higher nitrite levels than are found in established tanks. As a result they get replaced by Nitrospira by the time the cycle is done.

I will never use Stability for cycling as it is a bottle of bacterial spores and the nitrifying bacteria do not form spores.

BkkprGal
If you want I would be happy to work with you one on one to get your tank cycled. The only problem is I have a medical procedure on Thursday that may take a few days from which to recover. So I will likely be offline for a couple of days. How many depends on which potential post procedure complications I have. It could be none or it could be a few- toss a coin.

Whether you choose Dr. Tim's or Safe Start, go to the respective site and follow their directions for cycling with their product. Ignore the instructions on this site, including mine. They do not apply when seeding a tank with bacteria.

If you use a proper bottled bacteria it will fully cycle a tank in 7-10 days. There is no fake out. I have done this many times. I have cycled my bio-farms this way as well. It takes me about 2 weeks to cycle 12-15 filters going into 6 -8 tanks holding a total of a couple of 100 gallons. Read the fishless cycling directions on Dr. T's or Terta's site and they will tell you what I stated above. And I am also telling you it is accurate. You can fully cycle a tank in even less than a week in some cases.

The biggest problem after too much ammonia is too little inorganic carbon. The key yo monitoring this is your KH. This is mostly carbonates and bicarbonates and the bacteria can use these. To prevent lack of carbon being an issue, just keep an eye on the KH. Do not let of drop too low (1 or 2 dg) because the next step is it is gone and then the cycle stalls. The solution is to put a bag of crushed coral in ones filter or tank. One clue that KH is being used up is that the pH of the water will be dropping. KH is what keeps pH stable.

One last suggestion. Before you start over I would suggest you go here https://fins.actwin.com/aquariafaq.html When there click on Your First Aquarium. The part you should read is the Section on Practical Freshwater Chemistry. Ignore the part on Speeding Up Cycling, at least the part with the products to help as none of them contain the proper bacteria.
 
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@TwoTankAmin - You are awesome =). Good luck with your procedure tomorrow. I hope it's routine and there are no complications.
I read the Practical Freshwater Chemistry and it really helped my brain link the pieces together, so thank you. My tank pH is reading 7.8, sink water just tested this morning at <=6.0. I'm on a well and will be sending off the water for full mineral and bacterial testing today (I was supposed to have sent it off weeks ago - landlord requested it). I'll know more once those results come back which should be in just a few days. Tetra bac had to be ordered online and should be here today or tomorrow. I got little pipettes yesterday to better measure ammonia addition. I'm going to keep reading stuff and probably restart everything this weekend.
You're definitely right about me overthinking! I'm ADHD, over-thinker, over-researcher lol. Hey, we all have our faults =)
Best of luck tomorrow! I'll keep gathering supplies and information and regroup over the weekend.
Thanks again!
 
Anyone got any suggestions of how best to read the results of the API Master Test Kit?
It says to view in a well lit area against the white of the chart.
But i find it tough to work out the value, particularly for Nitrites.

Any ideas? Thanks
 
I have excellent well water. I do not use dechlor. However, well water often comes out of the ground with a lot of excess co2 in it. Co2 creates carbonic acid. Acid lowers pH. So it is especially important when testing the pH of well water that one let the water out-gas. You can do this in one of two ways.

One is to fill a clean container with a bit of water and then put in an airline (with or without an airstone) and let it bubble for about 15 minutes before you test (The more water in the container, the longer you should bubble it, you cannot over bubble it.) The other way is that you just leave the water sitting over night. Both methods get out the excess CO2, and thus the acid. The nice thing about CO2 causing the pH to drop is if that if you get the excess CO2 out of the water the pH returns to normal as will the KH.

In my early years my water which tested at 6.2 from the tap proved to be 7.3 when out-gassed. Over the years, as the population here has grown, the demands on the water table increased and it spends less time in the ground gathering minerals etc. A friend came down to visit about 12 years ago and she had a digital pH tester. She tested and it said 7.0. She also had a TDS meter and it showed my level was clearly down as well. Today I have a couple of digital TDS meters which also do temp. in C. I also have a continuous monitor for TDS/pH/Temp one one tank I run close to 6.0 pH and TDS in the 60 ppm range. I waited 10 years in the hobby before I felt safe trying this.

The bacteria grow best at temps in the low 80s, The ammonia ones like it warmer than the nitrite ones. The other two things they need most are oxygen and carbonates. Most of the other minor things they need are in our tap water. Iron is one of them. You can cycle with the tank warmer than it will be when you stock. This is not a problem. Just bring it back to the lower temp before the fish go in.

If, when you restart the cycle, you notice it suddenly seems to slow or stop, look for two things. The first is test your KH, if it is low or 0, you need to add carbonates as the FINS site mentioned. Next, if you make a mistake and add too much ammonia, this can result in too much nitrite and this stalls things. If you follow the SafeStart directions, this should not happen. But it helps to be aware of what to look for it things do go wrong.
 
Anyone got any suggestions of how best to read the results of the API Master Test Kit?
It says to view in a well lit area against the white of the chart.
But i find it tough to work out the value, particularly for Nitrites.

Any ideas? Thanks
The other white card in the kit provides a larger white area to view it... Always use diffused natural sunlight. If your nitrites are at 2-5ppm its just best to assume its at 5ppm+ BUT I use an online version of the color chart like this to find the right color:
1646849208371.png
 
Hi All! It's me again =) I've been super busy and haven't given this tank my full attention. I actually added a SafeStart bottle to the existing water (Am:4; Nitrite:0; KH:53.7; pH:7.6) and tested it for about 5 days just to see what would happen. Nothing, that's what happened. So today, I finally had the time to drain and start over. I feel a slime film on everything, so I think that's good lol.

I've added well water to the tank with the airstone running and plan to let it out-gas until tomorrow. I turned the heater up to 82*. Do you recommend that I test the pH before adding the bottle of SafeStart? If it goes back up to 7.6-ish, do I need to worry or do anything?

I looked all over for instructions for SafeStart since you recommended I follow those instead of your fishless cycle instructions. But, all I can find is "dump the whole bottle in and you're now ready to add fish". That seems much too simplistic and I'm skeptical.

I found this comment and thought it was interesting - what are your thoughts?
"If you’re using Tetra’s SafeStart the process will skip the nitrites building up and will directly build into nitrates."
aquanswers.com/api-quick-start-vs-tetra-safestart-work

Thanks!
 
aquanswers.com/api-quick-start-vs-tetra-safestart-work
When you copy a link make sure you do "copy link address" and not "copy link text"... Otherwise we cannot click it.
 
I think that comment from the website means that you add ammonia and the ammonia eaters in the bottle get to work on it straight away. Because there may not be enough of them yet, it may take a few days for ammonia to drop to zero. As the ammonia eaters start to process ammonia they start making nitrite, but this is produced at a lower level 24/7 than the ammonia which is added all in one go at a higher level. So the nitrite eaters in the bottle should be able to eat this nitrite as soon as it is made, so when we test we never see it.

That's the theory.

In practice, this may well not happen and nitrite may well appear in the test. I would just take it as a warning that maybe, possibly, just perhaps nitrite might not show up in the tests and be pleasantly surprised if that happens :)
 

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