..and Everything Was Going So Well...

[The Taffy Apple]

Good morning all, hopefully someone can help me with the problem i am having..


My 30L, plantless, fishless cycle was going very well...satisfactory results proved i was comfortably at 'Stage 3' and getting 'Double 0's within a 12 hour period...

The problem now seems to be my PH.... on 3 seperate occasion (each about 10 days apart) my PH has crashed through the floor, down from a very pretty 7.0-7.6 to a rather ugly looking 6.0-6.4 overnight. Each time this has happened i have added some Bicarb of Soda which has brought it back upto 7.6.

Now, it hasn't been a problem in the past, as i was still at the relative beginning of my Ammonia cycle, but as it has now happened on Day 6/7 of my 'Qualifying Week' it seems to have totally thrown my NitrIte and Ammonia readings completely off course....

Yesterdays (Sundays) readings were as follows;

1015- 1 ML Ammonia added.(usual dose)
2015- Ammonia;4.0. NitrIte;1.0
2215- Ammonia;4.0. NitrIe;0.5. PH;6.4 (1 smalla mount of Bicarb added)

Today (monday, so far)

0815-Ammonia; 0. NitrIte;2.0. PH;7.6.


Where would you suggest i go from here..? Partial water change? Leave it is as it is?


Heeeeeeeeeeeeelp....

Terry.

 

[Curiosity101]

What are you nitrates? If you haven't done a water change for awhile and they're really really high then it could just be a case of your water not being able to buffer all the acid anymore.

If you're getting these swings with 'normal' nitrates... ie. 20-30ppm or below. Then I do agree you need to do something about it.

 

[The Taffy Apple]

What are you nitrates? If you haven't done a water change for awhile and they're really really high then it could just be a case of your water not being able to buffer all the acid anymore.

If you're getting these swings with 'normal' nitrates... ie. 20-30ppm or below. Then I do agree you need to do something about it.

Indeed...thank you for your reply.

My last nitrAte reading was about 40-80 ppm (difficult to tell really).

 

[Curiosity101]

Well there's no real rush to do anything, and I'm certainly no fishless cycling expert... you'd want waterdrop for that.

But if it were me I'd do a 50% change to halve the nitrates and see if that helped. And also, although I'm sure you've already thought this, hang back on going to fetch fish.

At least you know why we have a qualifying week as part of the fishless cycling process! lol.

 

[KittyKat]

Looks like a "mini crash" sort of thing. Unfortunately you'll just have to sit it out and keep adding ammonia.. I think you will be done by this time next week.

Do you know how bicarbonate of soda works? It acts as a buffer, and a buffer only works until it is used up. So once the bicarbonate is used up, the pH crashes. Basically you are wanting to top it up before it actually gets to the point where it crashes, in other words, you should have been re-dosing with it about every 7-9 days, if it was crashing every 10.

 

[The Taffy Apple]

Looks like a "mini crash" sort of thing. Unfortunately you'll just have to sit it out and keep adding ammonia.. I think you will be done by this time next week.

Do you know how bicarbonate of soda works? It acts as a buffer, and a buffer only works until it is used up. So once the bicarbonate is used up, the pH crashes. Basically you are wanting to top it up before it actually gets to the point where it crashes, in other words, you should have been re-dosing with it about every 7-9 days, if it was crashing every 10.

Thank you Curiosity, thak you Kitty Kat, your replies are appreciated... I didn't fully understand what a 'buffer' was, but do now.

Just done a 75% water change, NitrAtes back to 20-40ppm, NitrItes and Ammonia are 0, so i'v re-dosed with my 1ml of Ammonia, last Ammonia tests proved it is now at 4ppm...

I shall keep a close eye on my results, it is very, very frustrating to see the cycle crash again, but i shall keep at it, i've come too far to give up now!

Appreciate your help,
Terry.

 

[anon02]

Just to make sure that you`re looking at the real causes of your high readings

When my cycle stalled it did not give high toxin readings, it just took longer for the NH3 and NO2 to process. If your cycle has stalled due to low pH either bicarb or water changes should sort it, but if you are getting elevated toxin readings I think you should be looking for other contaminants

Make sure that all your test equipment is scrupulously clean, rinse test tubes in tank water prior to testing, check on your timings and shakings and test the tank an hour after dosing to make sure that you`re getting the right dose

 

[The Taffy Apple]

Just to make sure that you`re looking at the real causes of your high readings

When my cycle stalled it did not give high toxin readings, it just took longer for the NH3 and NO2 to process. If your cycle has stalled due to low pH either bicarb or water changes should sort it, but if you are getting elevated toxin readings I think you should be looking for other contaminants

Make sure that all your test equipment is scrupulously clean, rinse test tubes in tank water prior to testing, check on your timings and shakings and test the tank an hour after dosing to make sure that you`re getting the right dose

Thank you Anon02....i am quite fussy when it comes to my testing equipment and test times, but i see the idea behind waiting 60 minutes after a test just to confirm/clarify, so i shall try that from now on...

Appreciated.

 

[JoshuaA]

Just a word of warning, Don't bother using the nitrAtre test during a fishless cycle. The nitrate test kits are notorious for reacting oddly when a trace amount of nitrIte is in the water. Specifically the API one I have experienced many confusing moments until I found out.

 

[waterdrop]

My own opinion is that partial water changes really have no "meaning" during fishless cycling. (Except of course if you are too busy and only have time to do a partial (such as having a large tank and it just being a tough process.)

It helps to remember that nothing else except the bacteria themselves, inside the filter, matter during a fishless cycle. You are not really trying to do anything else inside your tank. Instead you are just doctoring water to create an ideal bacerial growing soup. As such, great big changes are just fine!

So if possible, I always recommend that one just gravel-siphon right down until the vacuum breaks and nearly all the water has been taken out except the stuff in the gravel and the gravel has been thoroughly deep-cleaned (if indeed there is gravel, which is also not necessary for a fishless cycle, bare-tanked being even easier.) Then I usually bother to doctor my tap temperature (especially easy when using a Python type setup) so the bacteria can get right back to work. And of course one doses the conditioner at 1.5x, the ammonia at 5ppm and the bicarb at 2 teaspoons per 50L and powers the filter and heater back up - all of those should be concious checklist things so that nothing is forgotten. If you have low KH (low buffer) then doing this sort of operation on weekends during phase 3 can really help keep the fishless cycle moving along.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[The Taffy Apple]

My own opinion is that partial water changes really have no "meaning" during fishless cycling. (Except of course if you are too busy and only have time to do a partial (such as having a large tank and it just being a tough process.)

It helps to remember that nothing else except the bacteria themselves, inside the filter, matter during a fishless cycle. You are not really trying to do anything else inside your tank. Instead you are just doctoring water to create an ideal bacerial growing soup. As such, great big changes are just fine!

So if possible, I always recommend that one just gravel-siphon right down until the vacuum breaks and nearly all the water has been taken out except the stuff in the gravel and the gravel has been thoroughly deep-cleaned (if indeed there is gravel, which is also not necessary for a fishless cycle, bare-tanked being even easier.) Then I usually bother to doctor my tap temperature (especially easy when using a Python type setup) so the bacteria can get right back to work. And of course one doses the conditioner at 1.5x, the ammonia at 5ppm and the bicarb at 2 teaspoons per 50L and powers the filter and heater back up - all of those should be concious checklist things so that nothing is forgotten. If you have low KH (low buffer) then doing this sort of operation on weekends during phase 3 can really help keep the fishless cycle moving along.

~~waterdrop~~

As always, highly appreciated WD !

As i stated earlier in the thread, the two times my cycle has 'stalled' was, i'm presuming, down to very low PH...i come to this conclusion as it was only the PH reading that had dropped.

I'm expecting the PH to remain at 7.6 for another week or so, then for it to drop considerably again, in which case i shall add Bicarb of Soda to raise it back up.

But my main concern now is once the cycle is complete (judging by results over the last week it should be finished within the next 3/4 days) then how will a sudden change in PH affect the fish that i finally choose?

Is it possible to add Bicarb to the tank whilst the fish are in it?

terry.

 

[Curiosity101]

It's the high level of acid causing the pH to drop. Your water can buffer for so long to remain at a certain pH and then the 'buffer' is all used up so the pH starts to drop as there is free acid floating around.

Your nitrate levels, although possibly impaired by nitrite, are still likely to be significantly higher than that of a fully stocked tank imbetween water changes. And unlike now you'll only have nitrate present at any one time (no ammonia and nitrite as it's practically converted instantly)... so conclusion is you hopefully shouldn't be seeing these sudden drops when the tank is fully stocked.

Live plants, once you have fish, should also help keep nitrate down imbetween changes and therefore hopefully avoid a pH swing.

 

[The Taffy Apple]

It's the high level of acid causing the pH to drop. Your water can buffer for so long to remain at a certain pH and then the 'buffer' is all used up so the pH starts to drop as there is free acid floating around.

Your nitrate levels, although possibly impaired by nitrite, are still likely to be significantly higher than that of a fully stocked tank imbetween water changes. And unlike now you'll only have nitrate present at any one time (no ammonia and nitrite as it's practically converted instantly)... so conclusion is you hopefully shouldn't be seeing these sudden drops when the tank is fully stocked.

Live plants, once you have fish, should also help keep nitrate down imbetween changes and therefore hopefully avoid a pH swing.

Thank you curiosity....

So, let me get this right, the constant changes in chemical levels (adding of ammonia, >nitrItes >NitrAtes, etc etc) is lowering the PH and therefore wont happen once the tank is stocked and running..?

 

[Curiosity101]

Well yes and no.

Your water can absorb a set amount of acid before the pH will begin to change (like a sponge).

Ammonia in water forms a weak alkaline base
Nitrite in water is acidic (I think)
And Nitrate in water is definitely acidic.

Once you have a fully cycled and fully stocked tank you will never really need to consider ammonia and nitrite as a factor on pH because they're practically at 0.
Nitrates however are a factor, but they will be being kept much lower than they currently are in a fishless cycle... cause the bacteria can handle much much higher levels of nitrates before it affects their growth (ie. stalls the cycle). Hence no need to do water changes usually.

Sooo hopefully once you have fish, your water will have enough buffering capacity to keep the pH steady imbetween water changes as it'll only have to buffer (probably) around 20ppm of nitrates at the most.

 

[The Taffy Apple]

ahhhhhh...right, that makes sense... thank you.


Also, a little off topic, but once my tank is cycled and i have fish in it, would i be right in saying the filter media will have to process no-where near the 4ppm of Ammonia that i have been keeping the water level at?

That seems a very, very high amount for (with it being a small 30L tank) say, the half a dozen fish or so that i intend on keeping...

terry.