Am i overstocked?

styla12

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Hi guys,

Just looking to get an idea as to whether I am overstocked, it's a 240l tank with a Fluval 307 canister filter.

The fish in there are as follows:
6 x Zebra Danio (Danio rerio)
4 x Swordtail [Female] (Xiphophorus hellerii)
1 x Sailfin Molly (Poecilia latipinna)
3 x Molly (Poecilia sphenops)
2 x Dwarf Gourami (Colisa lalia)
2 x Black Widow Tetra (Gymnocorymbus ternetzi)
4 x Blue Ram (Mikrogeophagus ramirezi)
2 x Golden Ram (Mikrogeophagus ramirezi)
2 x Red Lined Torpedo Barb (Puntius denisonii)
15 x Guppy (Poecilia reticulata)
2 x Angelfish (Pterophyllum scalare)

Thanks all, p.s currently stocked in line with the "Pets at Home" points system which claims I still have some further capacity, but just want to make sure the "system" is realistic.

Thanks All :).
 
You are not overstocked in terms of fish mass/water volume, but you do have some quite serious stocking issues that I will explain.

First, water parameters...as you are in the London UK area I assume you have fairly hard water. This will be OK with respect to the livebearers (mollies especially, guppies, swordtails) so that is not an issue. The other species are more soft-water oriented but not to the extent that it would be with wild caught soft water fish, so we can let this pass. The next issues are much more significant.

Temperature. This is crucial for fish because they are ectothermic and temperature of the water drives their metabolism. Just a couple degrees higher or lower than their preferred range can mean stress, a weakened immune system, and general weakening of the fish's internal physiological system. You have species that must have warmer water, namely the rams; all varieties of Mikrogeophagus ramirezi need a temperature than is no lower than 80F (27C) and preferably a degree or two above this. However, this will cause real problems for the Zebra danios (Brachydanio rerio) which being active swimmers will be healthier in cooler water (range 18-25C/65-77F) and the same applies to the Denison Barbs (Sahyadria denisonii) whose range is 15-25C/59-77F. Both of these fish will begin having problems if kept at the temperature the rams must have. A note on temperature ranges...with reliable sites the fish are best mid-range, within a few degrees depending; the upper and lower limits are temperatures the species should be able to tolerate but not permanently, only temporarily. So these two species need water in the low 70's/20-21C. The tetras (Gymnocorymbus ternetzi) also willnot work at the over-80F/27C end.

However, the three above species have other issues affecting them or affecting some of the other species mentioned.

Sahyadria denisonii attain six inches (15 cm). Generally peaceful, but this species should not be kept with smaller fish that will likely be seen as food. It's mandatory water flow and cooler temperatures limit suitable tankmates to medium-sized barbs and danios, loaches, Garra and Devario species. Must be kept in a group, minimum 8; reports of aggressive behaviour may be due to the fish not being maintained in a sizeable group. A 5 to 6-foot (150 - 180 cm) length tank is minimum.

Brachydanio rerio are active swimmers, and this will annoy to no end the sedate fish here (angelfish, gourami). They may also turn to fin nipping as they settle; a larger group might eliminate this aspect, but there is still the very real non-compatibility of active and sedate fish in the same tank.

Gymnocorymbus ternetzi is also a shoaling fish so a group of at least six, but this fish too is prone to fin nip sedate fish so a larger group for the nipping but it cannot remain with sedate fish regardless.

Angelfish. This is also a shoaling fish, and a group of at least five in a 4-foot tank might work. If these two are both males, one will be dead in time, guaranteed. If both female, hard to say. If male/female, also hard to say, because they must bond to be peaceful over time. Angelfish must select their mates or bonding frequently does not materialize. Actually this applies to many cichlids, including the rams. As time goes by, they can literally overnight decide enough is enough and one will be hounded to death in short order.

These are the most serious issues now present, and obviously some fish must be removed from this tank, depending which way you want to go. I'd be happy to answer any further questions as you sort through this.
 
You are not overstocked in terms of fish mass/water volume, but you do have some quite serious stocking issues that I will explain.

First, water parameters...as you are in the London UK area I assume you have fairly hard water. This will be OK with respect to the livebearers (mollies especially, guppies, swordtails) so that is not an issue. The other species are more soft-water oriented but not to the extent that it would be with wild caught soft water fish, so we can let this pass. The next issues are much more significant.

Temperature. This is crucial for fish because they are ectothermic and temperature of the water drives their metabolism. Just a couple degrees higher or lower than their preferred range can mean stress, a weakened immune system, and general weakening of the fish's internal physiological system. You have species that must have warmer water, namely the rams; all varieties of Mikrogeophagus ramirezi need a temperature than is no lower than 80F (27C) and preferably a degree or two above this. However, this will cause real problems for the Zebra danios (Brachydanio rerio) which being active swimmers will be healthier in cooler water (range 18-25C/65-77F) and the same applies to the Denison Barbs (Sahyadria denisonii) whose range is 15-25C/59-77F. Both of these fish will begin having problems if kept at the temperature the rams must have. A note on temperature ranges...with reliable sites the fish are best mid-range, within a few degrees depending; the upper and lower limits are temperatures the species should be able to tolerate but not permanently, only temporarily. So these two species need water in the low 70's/20-21C. The tetras (Gymnocorymbus ternetzi) also willnot work at the over-80F/27C end.

However, the three above species have other issues affecting them or affecting some of the other species mentioned.

Sahyadria denisonii attain six inches (15 cm). Generally peaceful, but this species should not be kept with smaller fish that will likely be seen as food. It's mandatory water flow and cooler temperatures limit suitable tankmates to medium-sized barbs and danios, loaches, Garra and Devario species. Must be kept in a group, minimum 8; reports of aggressive behaviour may be due to the fish not being maintained in a sizeable group. A 5 to 6-foot (150 - 180 cm) length tank is minimum.

Brachydanio rerio are active swimmers, and this will annoy to no end the sedate fish here (angelfish, gourami). They may also turn to fin nipping as they settle; a larger group might eliminate this aspect, but there is still the very real non-compatibility of active and sedate fish in the same tank.

Gymnocorymbus ternetzi is also a shoaling fish so a group of at least six, but this fish too is prone to fin nip sedate fish so a larger group for the nipping but it cannot remain with sedate fish regardless.

Angelfish. This is also a shoaling fish, and a group of at least five in a 4-foot tank might work. If these two are both males, one will be dead in time, guaranteed. If both female, hard to say. If male/female, also hard to say, because they must bond to be peaceful over time. Angelfish must select their mates or bonding frequently does not materialize. Actually this applies to many cichlids, including the rams. As time goes by, they can literally overnight decide enough is enough and one will be hounded to death in short order.

These are the most serious issues now present, and obviously some fish must be removed from this tank, depending which way you want to go. I'd be happy to answer any further questions as you sort through this.

Hi mate,

Appreciate the detailed response.

In regards to the temperature I understand Rams might be a bit of an issue as my tank is at around 25 degrees. My LFS said they had their water at 25 degrees too for all fish which made me buy them but let's just hope for the best. So far it's been 2 weeks or so and they seem happy.

The Zebra danio and dwarf guarami were my started fish and they seem to have had no problems so far but I will keep an eye out for dears showing aggression.

My biggest worry right now is the Angelfish. Since I've had them for 2-3 days they seem to sit on the sides together and have shown no aggression. Maybe because I got the small ones. Should I get rid of them before they start showing aggression?

What do you think would be a good replacement?

Thanks
 
You have some serious misunderstandings of fish, so I will explain as best as I can.

In regards to the temperature I understand Rams might be a bit of an issue as my tank is at around 25 degrees. My LFS said they had their water at 25 degrees too for all fish which made me buy them but let's just hope for the best. So far it's been 2 weeks or so and they seem happy.

First, never accept any advice from staff in fish stores unless you know their level of training/knowledge. Everyone on this forum will tell you this. As for the conditions in store tanks, these must never be accepted as "OK." Stores hope to sell fish quickly, and most fish can manage/tolerate less than ideal conditions, though as these continue the fish are being harmed more permanently. But knowing what is needed at home and being able to provide it is essential if you want healthy fish. Anything less is cruelty to the fish.

Each species of freshwater fish has evolved to function in a very specific environment. Environment here means all aspects of its life, from water parameters to the habitat, including numbers of the species for a shoaling species and other species. Fish do not change just because we put them in an aquarium. The fish's physiological system cannot function well in adverse conditions. Please read the two citations in my signature.

The Zebra danio and dwarf guarami were my started fish and they seem to have had no problems so far but I will keep an eye out for dears showing aggression.

This is being cruel to the fish too. We cannot see "problems" like this, until it is too late. Fish show aggression in ways other than physical. They continually release chemical signals called phermones and allomones which other fish read, and by which other fish are impacted. Waiting until one dies is not the humane way to go. You cannot change nature.

My biggest worry right now is the Angelfish. Since I've had them for 2-3 days they seem to sit on the sides together and have shown no aggression. Maybe because I got the small ones. Should I get rid of them before they start showing aggression?

Yes, they are not going to be healthy here, and the behaviour you mention is already a sign that they are stressed.

You need to return several of these fish. I am not going to suggest any new fish because that will only make their lives even worse.
 
You have some serious misunderstandings of fish, so I will explain as best as I can.



First, never accept any advice from staff in fish stores unless you know their level of training/knowledge. Everyone on this forum will tell you this. As for the conditions in store tanks, these must never be accepted as "OK." Stores hope to sell fish quickly, and most fish can manage/tolerate less than ideal conditions, though as these continue the fish are being harmed more permanently. But knowing what is needed at home and being able to provide it is essential if you want healthy fish. Anything less is cruelty to the fish.

Each species of freshwater fish has evolved to function in a very specific environment. Environment here means all aspects of its life, from water parameters to the habitat, including numbers of the species for a shoaling species and other species. Fish do not change just because we put them in an aquarium. The fish's physiological system cannot function well in adverse conditions. Please read the two citations in my signature.



This is being cruel to the fish too. We cannot see "problems" like this, until it is too late. Fish show aggression in ways other than physical. They continually release chemical signals called phermones and allomones which other fish read, and by which other fish are impacted. Waiting until one dies is not the humane way to go. You cannot change nature.



Yes, they are not going to be healthy here, and the behaviour you mention is already a sign that they are stressed.

You need to return several of these fish. I am not going to suggest any new fish because that will only make their lives even worse.
Hi mate,

Thanks for your help.

I've taken your advice on board and got rid of my Rams, Angelfish, Dwarf Guarami, Barb and Black widow tetra back to the LFS.

Now I have Cardinal tetra, fancy guppy, Mollies and swordtails.

Does that sound better?

Also, seem to have brown algae growing on my tank glass and filter. Is this a problem and how do I remove this?

Thanks
 
It is a lot better but the cardinals should have gone back as well as they are soft water fish. The guppies, mollies and swordtails will be fine in London water.
 
Hi mate,

Thanks for your help.

I've taken your advice on board and got rid of my Rams, Angelfish, Dwarf Guarami, Barb and Black widow tetra back to the LFS.

Now I have Cardinal tetra, fancy guppy, Mollies and swordtails.

Does that sound better?

Also, seem to have brown algae growing on my tank glass and filter. Is this a problem and how do I remove this?

Thanks

I just responded to your algae question in your newer thread. This is an easy one. :nod:

The livebearers should be fine now, again assuming your water is moderately hard as is my understanding from other members from London. The cardinal tetra is a soft water species, however..I do hate to always bear bad news.

Edit. Essjay posted while I was typing, we're on the same page again.
 

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