Altum Angel

[dingweding]

Anyone keep Altum angelfish? i am thinking to buy some. I was told it need soft water and high temperature, like discus.

Can anyone tell me exactly the water parameters l? as my tap water is very hard, i will mix with RO water.

another question is, can i keep them with my normal Koi angel? as i do not have spare tank. but my tank is very big, enough to keep them

i was told they are almost impossible to breed. But if they can, will they cross with normal angel?

Many thanks for your patience

 

[DiscusKeeper403]

If they are wild Altums then yes, you should invest in some R/O if you pH is above 7. No, the species will not interbreed. I am not sure if mixing them is a good idea, but maybe someone else can give you input on this.

 

[trojannemo]

I actually have a single altum in quarantine right now. he's at pH 7 water and 84F...once he goes in my main tank it'll be pH 7.2-7.4 and temp. at 80F or 82F.
these fish are hardy but the difficult part is getting them through acclimation. they are truly wild going from a huge river to your small tank, plus the very low pH of the orinoco inhibits bacteria that thrives in our water...so the most important part is acclimating the fish well, slowly and patiently. if the fish makes it past the first 2-3 months, then you should be safe.

the breeder that got me mine keeps his very large altums and peruvian scalares mixed in a barebottom tank with pH of about 8! and he's had them for years now, at least since 2004 that i know of.
when the fish look like they want to breed he mixes RO water to lower the pH, but i'm not aware of the altums having spawned for him yet, though the peruvians have...

No, the species will not interbreed.

i'm very interested in seeing if this ever happens. provided my altum makes it through quarantine he'll be going into a planted tank with several other angels, including domestic scalare and wild peruvian. i would love to see the altum breed with my blue smokey or platinum angels

I am not sure if mixing them is a good idea, but maybe someone else can give you input on this.

give me six months and then you can use me as an example of whether it works or not

 

[Tolak]

These are some of the most difficult fish to keep long term. Water as soft as possible, with as low of a pH as possible, around 4.5. You want nearly zero TDS. Invest in a RO unit, no DI, and a large bail of peat moss. These fish are a step well beyond discus, I would suggest working with some wild caught scalare first. The trick of cutting tap water with RO, which in this case would be more of a splash of tap water in RO, will not work with these fish.

I have a large empty flake food container, with holes punched in the bottom. I put a paper coffee filter in, then fill it with peat moss. I drip water straight from the RO unit through this, into the tank. My RO unit puts out about 20gpd, the tank has an overflow, I run it for 24 hours twice weekly;

This gives me a pH of about 5.5, which is still not low enough, and something I have to work on, some experimenting with muriatic acid is in the plans. Hardness sits about 4ppm for general hardness, TDS is right around 20. My tap water is around 180gH, 7.6pH, with TDS in tap water tanks running around 200-220. Mixing RO with tap isn't going to get me close.

The first picture is lightened up a bit, the second shows the actual water color, there is peat running in the box filter, as well and almond leaves tossed in every couple of weeks. 40 gallons of tea.

These were Rio Negro fish, exported through Manaus, then acclimated to Chicago tap water. Not happy fish, I got 6 of them a few months back, lost one, another may be soon to go. They are difficult to work with in the best of conditions, these had a bit of a rough start. Wild caught scalare acclimate to my tap water fine, if done over a few weeks. I have a couple of tanks of dicrossus in the same peat filtered RO, which I've had for several months, doing very well in this water, along with some neons & hatchets for tank mates. This is an upcoming breeding project, as I had to buy a case of the cichlids from a pal who works with a transshipper.

You will not want to mix these with domestics, from my experiences with wild angels they will be cosiderably more aggressive and territorial. Add in the fact that all but a very few are wild caught, with the associated disease transfer between the wilds & domestics, and you could have a problem there. There are very very few captive bred altums, and they are usually marked as sold before they leave the breeder.

The chances of them breeding are slim, and crossing with domestics is so slight a chance as to be considered impossible. A cross with wild scalare, in the wild, is a probability, and over the years has been the subject of much discussion among angel breeders.

Check to see if and how these altums have been acclimated as well as if a worming procedure was followed, with what and how. The acidic waters of the Amazon have a natural bacteriostatic property, and along with being very mineral poor makes them a difficult growing media for bacteria. The Amazon is huge, with a much higher rate of dilution than any of the tanks we own, this also helps to keep water borne bacteria at bay. Poor acclimation and being kept in the wrong water is asking for problems with altums. A quarantine procedure as well as the mentioned worming procedure is a must.

 

[dingweding]

may i ask why do not use put the peat in your filter? i used to put peat in the external filter of CRS tank. It does not work, but i noticed it, my moss will never grow, and look very dirty messy. After i removed the peat, they grow like mad.

if altum will not cross breed with domestic angel? why are the domestic angels come from? i thought they should origin from some wild ancestor.

 

[meguro]

Domestic angelfish are pterophyllum scalare and this guy is talking about pterophyllum altum. Apparently there are 1-4 other species of angelfish too. That's my understanding anyway.

 

[trojannemo]

as far as I know there are three described species of Pterophyllum: P. altum, P. leopoldi, and P. scalare. sometimes you'see "Dumerellii" angelfish on aquabid but those are P. leopoldi! then there's the issue of the "peruvian" altum, which is believed to be a cross between P. altum and P. scalare. but then that begs the question, is it a P. scalare, a P. altum, or a whole new subspecies?

so I count 3 species + the possible peruvian subspecies...


i dont have the intentions, nor the means, to do what Tolak is doing, and so my one altum will have to tough it out i guess.
i want him to survive, i really do, but Tolak's post is depressing me already

 

[Tolak]

Sorry, don't be bummed, I just do a ton of research before going into something I don't have personal knowledge of. After seeing enough situations I've come to the conclusion that absolutely nothing is written in stone when it comes to aquatics.

True altums, to be positively identified as such, must be verified more by exactly where they were collected it seems. In the wild there is the possibility of some crossing between altum, scalare, and what is usually termed leopoldi, with geography limiting to a large extent what can, or should be able to cross.

My fish, while sold as altums, may be a variant, as may your fish, finding an absolute pro for a positive id on altums is a difficult thing. There have been enough of what have been termed at times paradox fish to show us that nature can do things outside the expected norm. With the possibility of these crosses also comes the possibility of a more hardy fish, though in my case I am erring on the side of caution.

An older topic, but a good read, with many applicable ideas, theories, and observations; http/www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtop...151&start=0

 

[Stan510]

I bought an Angel fish last year that was Scalare in price,but with its black bars and sort of narrow body seems like to me its got Altum DNA. The other Angel I bought was a very young one..and its grown into the plain jane every day angelfish. The other though was a good deal and has kept the great black and silver color, plus one more bar.