Advice Please: Algae And Plant Problems

[BBrain]

I'm new with the modern details of planted tanks, although I have kept aquaria for quite awhile, many years ago (before the use of CO2, fertilization, HOB filters, fancy lights, etc.), so I could really use some help with my newly set up tank.

I'm getting the same problem that I had last month, that was quite horrible to deal with...."staghorn" algae.
I had to toss out 90% of my lovely plants. My Otocinlus' did not eat it, and that stuff is impossible to remove from plants, but can be scrubbed off wood and other hard surfaces. It looks black from a distance, but is actually grey-green.
Reference (look at the first species): http/www.otocinclus.com/articles/algae.html
Photos of my staghorn algae:

Now my new, beautiful Amazon swords are starting to get infested with it, at the leaf edges and tips:

The sword plants are growing okay, but there are two things that don't look right, that may be related to my algae growth. One, some of the new leaves on my "compact" sword plant (possibly E.cordifolius?) have brown streaks. Secondly, some of the leaves on my Anubias nana are starting to go blotchy yellow. Photos:

I think that there must be something wrong with the way I'm fertilizing, or perhaps lighting, or ?
If any experts out there could take the time to think about my system, and hopefully see what's wrong, I'd really, really appreciate it!

Here are the tank details:
Set up time: 6 months
Tank: 27 US gal. (30" X 12" X 18" tall)
Substrate: plain gravel, about 3 or 4mm dia. (with a very small amount of crushed shell)
Ornaments: one rooty log and several river rocks
Fish: 9 Glowlight tetra, 2 Otocinclus, 3 Peppered Corydoras
Plants: 6 Amazon Sword plants (unknown sp.) 7 - 13 in. tall, one compact Sword plant 3" tall, 6 planted Water sprite, a dozen floating Water sprite, one Anubias nana, and some young Brazilian microsword (Lilaeopsis brasiliensis). All except the Water sprite have only been in the tank about 3 weeks.
Temp: 25C
pH: 7.2 - 7.4
NH3+4: 0
NO2: 0
NO3: 7 - 8 ppm
PO4: 0.5 ppm
KH: 80 ppm (4.5 dH)
GH: 75 ppm (4.2 dH)
Lighting: 12 hours/day of 54 watts of T8 daylight spectrum (or cool white?), with a 2 hour siesta mid-day
Fertilizing: Seachem Flourish root tabs & Flourish liquid @ 2 ml every few days
Filtration: one Aquaclear 50 HOB at half throttle with sponge, zeolite, and BioMax media, and one Aquaclear 30 at half throttle with only sponge media
Water changes: about 30 - 40% once per week

Thanks very much in advance!

 

[Liam]

I don’t know that much about controlling it. I have read that it is associated with unstable amounts of Co2 in the water. You don’t dose Co2 do you? If not the only other thing that could be causing the unstable amounts of Co2 would be the water changes. So maybe doing small ones more often would give a more stable Co2 level in the tank.

I haven’t done this myself but Seachem Flourish excel dosed at twice the recommended dose is usually kills it. Some people use a syringe and squirt the excel at the affected area which nukes it. You would need to do a bit of research on this I don’t know how long you are supposed to keep it up, how safe it is for fish etc, I think its safe but not sure. The other thing about the Excel is that it provides plant available carbon, which would help if it’s the changing amounts of Co2 that’s the cause. Staghorn is able to take advantage of a quick jump in Co2, (this is what I have read anyway, from what seemed reliable sources).

I am not sure about the photoperiod, it might be worth changing it reducing it to eight hours with no breaks. Not at all sure about that but its worth a try. Hopefully someone will come along how knows more on that. No the ottos wont eat it, an sae would eat some but its better at eating it when its just starting to grow.

Take as much as you can off by hand, really badly infested leaves remove.

 

[EliteFishy]

Those are staghorn algae growing on your plants and I believe the reason your anubia are turing yellow if because of lack of nutrients. Look at the zig's sticky on EI dosing. The cause for staghorn is ammonium(NH4) and lack of CO2. Sae's will eat staghorn.

 

[TrueNoob]

plants are able to keep alive under fairly poor conditions for about a month, after that they begin to die if they aren getting the proper lighting and nutrients, so im guessing that there not being fed what they need and were just planted there with hopes of growing

your lighting is fine though, you could also be over dosing with iron supplements, to much iron beigns to turn plants yellow, thats 1 sign of over dose, or they arent getting enough of other supplements, and take out anything dead, because dead thing cause ammonia to go up then nitrates.

 

[Themuleous]

I feel your pain, I have two tanks suffering from the same thing and unfortunately I've not read anything that gives a specific reason or cure. What I have read says it can be to do with to much iron or CO2 levels. I think I got mine when I let the CO2 levels fall for a few weeks.

If I were you, Id get some CO2 in there, you're very near 2WPG and CO2 almost becomes essential at those light levels. This should help reduce the staghorn growth if it doesn't actually kill it.

I am also told the JBL algol works well against algae and I'll be trying this in the next week or too. I have also tried overdosing seachem excel 3x the recommended dose for several weeks and it did nothing.

I have also read the hydrogen peroxide can be used to treat it, but this is risky for fish gills and will probably affect the filter too, so not for the inexperienced.

Sam

 

[BBrain]

Thanks very much for all your replies!

Liam, I don't inject CO2, but I think you might be right about my tank being low in CO2. I found a chart to estimate CO2, based on pH and KH, here: http/www.algone.com/planted_aquarium.htm#CO2
It shows that my tank should have about 5 to 8 ppm, and that site recommends between 5 and 20. I don't know if my water changes would lower my tank CO2, because my tap water is similar in pH and KH to my tank water.

Good idea about reducing the photoperiod, since my 12 hours/day is at the high end of what I've read is recommended, of 10 to 12 hours. I know that algae bloom in lots of light. But I'm a bit worried if I reduce the light, that the plants will also suffer, and the idea is for the plants to out-compete the algae. So if less light slows down the plants, I'm afraid that the algae will then be at even more of an advantage. That's something I know nothing about.

As for removing the staghorn algae from the plants, that's not possible, since it's so firmly attached that it won't pull off; the leaves will rip. But, I think that I will cut off the leaves with the worst algae, since there are other, newer leaves that look clear of algae. (But they might have tiny algae plants on them, that I just can't see yet. I can see some baby algae plants stuck to the glass, down near the gravel!


EliteFishy, thanks for the suggestion about EI dosing. I've heard that method works. Regarding the Siamese Algae Eater; I was thinking of getting one, but I think my tank is too small for it to be happy. But I might get a small one, and trade it back in to the fish store when it gets too big.

TrueNoob, I don't know about my iron level....one more test kit to buy, I guess! One thing that I'm not happy about, is that the nutrients that I have been using (Seachem gravel tabs and Flourish) do not list their ingredients. I've read that they do this because of some sort of labelling regulation....something about if they did list the ingredients, their products would then be classified as fertilizers, and that would cause some sort of problems to Seachem (marketing?). Anyway, I'm not happy about dosing unknown things, so if possible, I will be replacing the Seachem products with something else that's identifiable.
Don't worry about me not taking out any dead stuff.....I'm obsessive about that! My tank's cleaner than my floor!

Themuleous, I'm sorry to hear that your tanks have the same nasty problem!
I've also read about Excel overdosing, and that it works in killing algae in some tanks, but not in others. But if it's true about it being a substitute for CO2 for a carbon source, I may start using it. I don't really want to add a CO2 system to the tank, since I want to keep things as simple as possible. But I agree, that CO2 seems to be the way to go, at least with higher light levels. (I do have another 18 watt lamp in my hood that's not swithched on at the moment, that would bring me up to 2.7 watts per gallon, if I were to switch it on with the other lamps).
As for hydrogen peroxide...that's a little scary to me, especially since I'd have to squirt it all over the tank, and I believe my fish species might be sensitive to that (tetras and cories).
"JBL algol" is something I haven't seen....perhaps a UK product? I'm in Canada, but I'll check into that anyway.

Any other ideas, anyone?

 

[Themuleous]

Liam, I don't inject CO2, but I think you might be right about my tank being low in CO2. I found a chart to estimate CO2, based on pH and KH. It shows that my tank should have about 5 to 8 ppm.

Don't be mislead by that chart, it only works if you are actually adding CO2. The air only contains 0.04% CO2 so levels on a non-CO2 tank are going to be negligible.

Good idea about reducing the photoperiod, since my 12 hours/day is at the high end of what I've read is recommended, of 10 to 12 hours. I know that algae bloom in lots of light. But I'm a bit worried if I reduce the light, that the plants will also suffer, and the idea is for the plants to out-compete the algae. So if less light slows down the plants, I'm afraid that the algae will then be at even more of an advantage. That's something I know nothing about.

I wouldn't worry about this the plants will be fine. 10hrs is plenty to keep them alive.

TrueNoob, I don't know about my iron level....one more test kit to buy, I guess! One thing that I'm not happy about, is that the nutrients that I have been using (Seachem gravel tabs and Flourish) do not list their ingredients.

Save your money, iron test kits are notoriously inaccurate. I doubt you've got to much iron unless you add a bottle every week or its very high in the tap water (BTW you local water company should be able to tell you the iron levels in the tap water ) I would just add the seachem flourish as per instructed on the bottle then you'll be ok

Themuleous, I'm sorry to hear that your tanks have the same nasty problem! I don't really want to add a CO2 system to the tank, since I want to keep things as simple as possible. But I agree, that CO2 seems to be the way to go.

Thanks, pain aint it! CO2 doesn't have to be complicated, just a DIY bottle and mix which you change weekly. And I don't think the excel is a proper substitute for CO2, the plants are designed to use CO2 not a man made chemical, however good it might be.

"JBL algol" is something I haven't seen....perhaps a UK product? I'm in Canada, but I'll check into that anyway.

Yeh have a look for it. As I say I've not used it yet, will let you know how well it works.

Sam

 

[discus dreamer]

sorry to hear about the algae problem, I have it as well, its a pain!
It started up when I was away for a week and my husband didn't remember to press the co2 button in the mornings, so perhaps the fluctuating CO2 is an issue with my outbreak. Anyway i reduced the lighting from 12 to 10 hours (2 hour break) and it has not solved the problem but is much better than it was.
DD

 

[BBrain]

Thank you so much for this extra help, Themuleous and Discus Dreamer (I like that handle ). That's great to hear that reducing your light time has helped your situation, Discus Dreamer! I like to hear positive things!

Okay, I'm convinced that going down to 10 hours of light per day is okay. Now that I think about that, it makes sense to give less light in a low tech tank, since the the plants aren't demanding as much fuel (light).
But I'll stick with my 2 hour siesta, I guess.

I'm not really worried about having too much iron, since I don't think my Flourish root tabs or liquid Flourish have much of it, if any, and my tap water has very little. I worry more about not enough potassium. I've read that potassium is often in short supply, unless a tank is fertilized with it, and some of my plants do show some signs of that. So, I plan on dosing with a liquid potassium fertilizer like Tetra Flora-Pride, or Seachem Flourish Potassium, on top of my usual Flourish liquid. Sound okay?

Thanks again, fellow algae-sufferers! This is a great forum site!

 

[BBrain]

I just remembered one reason why I didn't pursue CO2 injection, when I first set up my tank. I understand that in water that is poorly buffered (see my very soft water parameters, in my first post), there's quite a risk of the pH dropping very fast, since CO2 plus water equals carbonic acid. I really don't want to have to be super-vigilante about my tank, especially since I'm often away for several days at a time, and don't trust anyone else to "fish sit"!

 

[BBrain]

Update:

1. Added a young Siamese Algae Eater (Crossocheilus siamensis) ("SAE")

2. Reduced daily lighting from 12 to 10 hours

3. Removed zeolite from filter (don't need ammonia absorption, and maybe zeolite makes a water chemistry change that algae like)

4. Began dosing the water with API Leaf Zone (0-0-3) for potassium and iron (3% potassium & 0.1% iron)

5. Pulled gravel off Anubias' roots, & fastened it with fishing line to wood (I read that Anubias need lots of oxygen, so roots should not be buried)

6. Added clay fertilizer balls (macro and micro nutrients) under Amazon Swords' roots

7. Will maintain dosing Seachem Flourish into the water

Hopefully one or several of these actions will help.
One other possible action: If the SAE doesn't eat the staghorn algae from the plants within the next couple of days, I'll remove the most-infected leaves.
That's all I can think of, except for adding CO2 or Seachem Excel....still considering either one.

I'll let you know how it goes! Meanwhile, if anyone else has other suggestions, fire away!

 

[voo]

You'll have to keep us updated!
I have a little of this algae starting to take place, whilst it doesnt seem to be getting worse or spreading far, i dont like it in the tank at all so would be good if u could keep an eye on the SAE and see if it does appear to be eating it!

Good luck

 

[Themuleous]

Glad to see you're being proactive WC, and what you say you've done sounds good to me. Adding extra potassium is probably a good idea, its always best to trust your plants, if they are showing signs of a deficiency, give them what they need! Most of the professions don't even test their tank, just use the plants as a guide.

As to the CO2, its a bit of a myth that whole pH crash thing, yes is possible but in my experience its unlikely. The ADA aquasoil even activity removes the buffering capacity of the water (to below detectable levels) lowering the pH even more! If you are worried increase CO2 gradually, even a KH of 1 is plenty, so long as you keep up the regular water changes (Which should be done anyway, even if CO2 isn't being added). So don't be afraid of CO2, the benefits far outweigh the small potential risk.

Sorry to say it but I don't think SAE eats staghorn, the American flag fish does though.

Sam

 

[BBrain]

Hey Sam, thanks for the reassurance about CO2. I guess I should go for it!

I did read about those American Flag Fish, but I've never seen any for sale. Don't they also eat plants? I'm not sure. As for the SAE, I think you're right about them not usually eating Staghorn algae, but I'm desperate! I've already gone through this nightmare, and had to buy all new plants! And I do have other, softer algaes (green and brown), that it could eat. I have 2 Otocinclus' but they don't eat the Staghorn.

The only reference I found about SAE's possibly eating Staghorn algae is this one:

"Algae growing on my plants!!! Just about the saddest sight watching your prize plant slowly getting overrun by invaders... Here is where patience and persistence really is required. Get your arms in that tank and start pulling as much algae as you can off the plants. Maybe even take the large leaf plants and tougher specimens out of the water and scrape at it with a razor blade. More than just physical removal, this seems to stimulate you algae eating critters. I do not have a definitive explanation for this but I've seen my siamensis ignore staghorn algae until I started ripping it out- then they started really gobbling it up! Maybe it's like peeling an orange for them or something. Keep at it and make sure to get the critters that can help you out. " (from the Albany Aquarium:
http/www.albanyaquarium.com/library_AlgaeHelp.htm)

Isn't that interesting? Maybe rubbing the Staghorn releases a bit of its taste into the water, that stimulates SAE's appetite for it. But, I won't be using a razor blade on my Sword plants! I'll try a gentle scrub with a plastic pot scrubber, but I have a feeling that won't work, because Staghorn is SO firmly attached.

So far, my SAE has been just grazing on the softer green algae. And it went for a piece of flake food, but I don't want that....he has to focus on my algae! It's a very nice looking fish, but my Glowlights are quite wary of it at this point, and are schooling tighter, and keeping their distance from it! I guess they've never seen an Asian fish before!

Okay, today's strategy: try to loosen some Staghorn algae from the plants, and see if that attracts the SAE.

 

[Themuleous]

Yeh Ive heard this before too, as you say it seems to stimulate them into eating it. Let us know if it works!

Sam