A Couple of Strange Events

[Jan Cavalieri]

I recently had a couple of strange things going on in my tanks. Tank D: (the most overcrowded) had perfect numbers EXCEPT for Nitrates that registered at the top of the scale of 160 - flaming red. NO FISH DIED. I quickly did a 90% water change, which brought it down to about 60 then a second water change which brought it down to 10. All other numbers remained perfect (I have to use a Neutralizer to get the PH close to 7 and it was right on the dot). Why did no fish die - I do a water change weekly and never have seen such a high reading. All is well but any idea what happened?

The second instance was in my tank A - quickly becoming my lowest populated tank - and in one day I lost 2 dwarf Gourami's and 1 Red Cherry Barb and 1 Harlequin Rasbora. All the water stats were right on the money with PH being 7. My only guess is that I brought the PH down too quickly - although it's the way I always do it - perhaps they inhaled too much neutralizer even though it's mixed in 3 batches of 4 gallon buckets. These were some of my first fish but not that old - purchased back in April of last year. At the same time they died I had just purchased and planted a large variety of plants - after rinsing and sorting for snails and other "bugs" - they were quite clean and tank A,B and D all had the same plants and no fish died in those tanks. Tank A, however had the most plants added - especially Hornwort. But also 4 leaf clover, Hygrophilia, and Sword plants. ONE of the Gourami's had a small slit at the bottom of his body - the rest were untouched. I keep filing the ceramics in the tank but he may have cut himself. Still- anybody know any particular bug that would be on these plants. I already hate the hornwort so I've removed 2/3rds of it but it looked healthy enough.

Anyway emergency passed in both cases - just really concerned about losing so many fish and about the super high nitrate reading in otherwise perfect water.

Finally, my house is sagging in the middle. This is a 1960 duplex and the Aquarium Room is showing sagging around the baseboards in the middle of the room. I only have 2 - 29 gallon tanks in there but it wasn't sagging before. Should I be concerned? I need a much bigger tank for my more aggressive and very big Gourami's and 1 cichlid - but the only other space in the house already has serious sagging problems - (these are all hardwood floors.) Basement has been reinforced with one long steal beam across the area - but it's back to sagging. Afraid to tell my landlord because I don't want to get rid of the fish. If I had a water source and sink in the basement I'd move the tanks down there - not the most pleasant place to be but safe from sagging. I can't believe tanks this small could cause much damage.

 

[JuiceBox52]

Tanks can be very heavy when filled. Gravel, water, etc. It is odd that its sagging so much tho

 

[Byron]

Tank D: (the most overcrowded) had perfect numbers EXCEPT for Nitrates that registered at the top of the scale of 160 - flaming red. NO FISH DIED. I quickly did a 90% water change, which brought it down to about 60 then a second water change which brought it down to 10. All other numbers remained perfect (I have to use a Neutralizer to get the PH close to 7 and it was right on the dot). Why did no fish die - I do a water change weekly and never have seen such a high reading. All is well but any idea what happened?

Nitrates do not immediately kill most fish (some can be, if the nitrate is high enough). The detrimental effect of nitrate (even at lower levels) is best explained as a slow weakening of the fish. The longer the fish is exposed to the nitrate, or the higher the level of nitrate, or both, the more the fish is physiologically weakened. Nitrate itself seldom kills the fish though it will be indirectly responsible; it is the weakened immune system allowing the fish to succumb to pathogens it would normally be able to fight off. So nitrate can ultimately be responsible for the fish dying (and having a shorter lifespan which is par for the course because of this weakening). As with most fish ailments, prevention (keeping nitrate as low as possible and never above 20ppm) is preferable.

Second point here is your use of pH adjusters. These are only adding more stress to the fish, that is a guarantee. So this is also weakening the fish, with the same results as above for nitrate. The fish deaths in the second tank were undoubtedly due to your regular use of pH adjuster. These chemicals are toxic to fish.

 

[Jan Cavalieri]

Then tell me what to do to keep the PH level below 9? I have 3 teaspoons of this "Neutral Regulator" I dissolve in 12 gallons of water and can hit 7 on the nose nearly everytime. It will then go down some until it hits about 6.6 by the next week when it's water change time again. My fish can't live at a PH of 9 so therefore I just can't have fish? Saying "no chemicals" is basically saying no fish. I rent - I can't put an osmosis unit in - and I'm not physically capable of lifting and walking with 5 gallon buckets from the grocery store - not compatible with somebody on oxygen 24/7. It's a struggle just to do a water change each week but so far I can do it - when I can't do water changes any longer, then the fish will have to go. And doing a single water change takes 2-4 hours per tank so it's a commitment. Personally, I'm not anti chemical at all - not sure why everybody is, they've changed life for the good far more than the bad.

Thanks for the info about the nitrates - I've never had a value over 20 as far as I can remember except that one instance - I do have a neighbor girl that is over one afternoon a week but she's not even allowed to feed the fish - she is sneaky about trying to touch the fish when I'm out of the room - could be she had some soap on her hands - I've warned her about soap and other issues and she's 9 - old enough to understand but I don't entirely trust her. Luckily she gets bored with the fish quickly. I'm thinking I had some weakened fish in the tank and there was a delayed reaction to nitrates so high - I was shocked the entire tank didn't go - but it's been a month - so I think I'm OK. I dislike children (and I'm going to be a grandma soon).

Well with the structural steel beam in place in the basement obviously they've had settling issues in the past. Can't imagine how much that beam cost but I'm sure they won't put another in for my fish. This is a very nice place, just not in the nicest part of town and I needed all hardwood or tile for my breathing (that's when chemistry is bad - why people have carpet I will never know - talk about chemical issues and laminent is only partially better because of the glue). If there weren't spiders in the basement I would have somebody move all my fish stuff down there but I never planned on having so many tanks.

 

[utahfish]

Then tell me what to do to keep the PH level below 9? I have 3 teaspoons of this "Neutral Regulator" I dissolve in 12 gallons of water and can hit 7 on the nose nearly everytime. It will then go down some until it hits about 6.6 by the next week when it's water change time again. My fish can't live at a PH of 9 so therefore I just can't have fish? Saying "no chemicals" is basically saying no fish. I rent - I can't put an osmosis unit in - and I'm not physically capable of lifting and walking with 5 gallon buckets from the grocery store - not compatible with somebody on oxygen 24/7. It's a struggle just to do a water change each week but so far I can do it - when I can't do water changes any longer, then the fish will have to go. And doing a single water change takes 2-4 hours per tank so it's a commitment. Personally, I'm not anti chemical at all - not sure why everybody is, they've changed life for the good far more than the bad.

Thanks for the info about the nitrates - I've never had a value over 20 as far as I can remember except that one instance - I do have a neighbor girl that is over one afternoon a week but she's not even allowed to feed the fish - she is sneaky about trying to touch the fish when I'm out of the room - could be she had some soap on her hands - I've warned her about soap and other issues and she's 9 - old enough to understand but I don't entirely trust her. Luckily she gets bored with the fish quickly. I'm thinking I had some weakened fish in the tank and there was a delayed reaction to nitrates so high - I was shocked the entire tank didn't go - but it's been a month - so I think I'm OK. I dislike children (and I'm going to be a grandma soon).

Well with the structural steel beam in place in the basement obviously they've had settling issues in the past. Can't imagine how much that beam cost but I'm sure they won't put another in for my fish. This is a very nice place, just not in the nicest part of town and I needed all hardwood or tile for my breathing (that's when chemistry is bad - why people have carpet I will never know - talk about chemical issues and laminent is only partially better because of the glue). If there weren't spiders in the basement I would have somebody move all my fish stuff down there but I never planned on having so many tanks.

Peat moss will lower your ph and is safer than chemicals. You could try that.

 

[Jan Cavalieri]

Peat moss. There are a zillion different kinds and some would be damaging. Besides what's the difference? How will I know EXACTLY how much to put in? Will it smell, make the water dirty? How is it safer? - it is also a chemical just not white powder with labels and instructions telling you exactly how much to add. If its a matter of being gradual - I am being gradual. I still find nothing wrong with chemicals - I trust them more because they are typically accurately measured. You have no control over the strength of peat moss.

 

[utahfish]

Peat moss. There are a zillion different kinds and some would be damaging. Besides what's the difference? How will I know EXACTLY how much to put in? Will it smell, make the water dirty? How is it safer? - it is also a chemical just not white powder with labels and instructions telling you exactly how much to add. If its a matter of being gradual - I am being gradual. I still find nothing wrong with chemicals - I trust them more because they are typically accurately measured. You have no control over the strength of peat moss.

Get a filter sock and some peat moss doesnt matter what kind long as it doesnt have anything other ingerdients in it, sphangum moss is regularly used. Put some of the peat moss i the sock rinse the sock of loose dust then place the sock in your bucket of water, it will tint the water but thats not a problem for most fish. Youll have to play with the time you leave the sock in to get the PH level where you want it but its an option other than chemicals that will be less harmful to your fish if you wanted to try. Also if you rinsed plants in tap water then directly added to tank the chlorine and chloramine from the tap water on the plants hasnt been eliminated can get in your tank. If rinsed plants in tap water place plants in bucket of water one is going to add then dechlorinate, dechlorinating water and plants. Just a thought. Good luck

 

[Byron]

First briefly on the nitrate...if the nitrate is occurring solely within the aquarium, it is fairly easy to deal with. If it is occurring partly in your source water, that is another issue. If you have tested the tap water on its own and nityrate is zero then the nitrates occurring in the aquarium are developing therein from organics. The way to deal with this is:

1. do not overstock,
2. do not overfeed (once a day, and missing one or two days each week will not hurt the fish),
3. regular substantial partial water changes,
4. keeping the filter well cleaned,
5. cleaning into the substrate in open areas during the water change.

I am not suggesting you are not doing these, I am just listing the things that work to keep nitrates low. Live plants also help, not by using nitrates but because they take up so much ammonia/ammonium and that means less for the bacteria which means less nitrite and thus less nitrate at the end.

Now to the pH. First we must understand that pH is closely connected to other factors: the GH, the KH (Alkalinity), and dissolved CO2. These are the primary factors. The GH and KH serve as buffers to keep the pH where it is in the source water. The higher the GH and KH, the more "buffering" capacity they have. When you add chemicals or peat (organics) to lower the pH, it will usually do so fairly quickly. But within 24 hours or so the natural buffering capability will return the pH or begin to raise it according to the level of GH/KH and the CO2. How much all this plays out depends upon the GH, KH and pH of the source water.

The only effective (and safe) way to lower pH is by reducing the GH and KH. I need to know the GH, KH and pH of your tap water on its own in order to determine how effective this or that might be. Water chemistry is very complex, and any attempt to change one aspect usually has a sometimes profound chain reaction. All of this is harmful to fish. A steady pH is less harmful. But obviously one has to select fish that will manage with the initial GH, KH and pH.

Substances added to the tank water will end up inside the fish. Water continually enters fish via osmosis through every cell and any substance in the water gets into the fish's bloodstream and is carried to the internal organs. There can also be issues at the gills. Over time, this weakens the fish more and more, making it harder for the fish to carry out the essential daily functions. The fish slowly wears out. Disease is more likely because stress weakens the immune system significantly. Chemicals may sometimes have benefits, depending; but the fish's physiology is so closely connected to their aquatic environment fgor which each species has evolved that the impacts are far greater than similar would be for any terrestrial animal. This is one reason fish species are so rapidly declining due to environmental issues; their day-to-day life is totally dependant on a very limited range in environmental factors.

 

[Velatelen]

You mentioned ceramics and the need to file them What exactly are you describing are they items sold specifically for aquariums. Some secretive ceramics have glazed with minerals mixed in for color even lead for some things. Just a thought...

 

[Jan Cavalieri]

City Water: PH: 9.4, GH: 6.14-15.8, KH: 2.6-7.7

The ceramics are those made for aquariums - they are molded to look like a tree trunk, or whatever you want and they tend to have sharp edges mainly inside - the fish swim through really fast and gets slit on it's stomach or back from one of the sharp edges. I hate them - I've had several fish suffer cuts from theses so I try to run my fingers all over the inside and file them down.

As far as peat in a sock - I see it exactly the same way as my chemicals in 29 gallons of water.

 

[Byron]

As far as peat in a sock - I see it exactly the same way as my chemicals in 29 gallons of water.

There is a very big difference. Peat is a natural organic substance, as are dried leaves and wood. These items are found in the natural habitat of many tropical fish, and the fish are designed to live with them and in some cases use them. This cannot be said of any chemical substance. The effect that the organics have on softening and acidifying the water is natural and permanent, there is no fluctuation; the water remains at the GH and pH permanently--there is very little fluctuation in pH aside from the natural diurnal one and even seasonal changes are minimal and gradual by comparison]. As soon as we add any chemical to adjust pH or anything else, we are introducing a foreign substance into the water and this when it gets inside the fish can be a problem. If the change then fluctuates as it usually does, it is even worse for the fish.

 

[Jan Cavalieri]

Byron, I know you generally think natural is the only way to go, plus there are big issues with changing PH because it can impact the fish so much. Let's just agree to disagree- I really want as predictable and as accurate reading as possible - which often means using chemicals while you feel using natural methods puts the fish at less risk. I know I need to read up on the who acid/base/buffering section of chemistry (I remember struggling with that as a freshman in college - guess I never got past it) because even using this chemical the PH will fluctuate over the course of a week - (it usually starts at 7.0 right after I adjust it then starts dropping until it gets to about 6.2 before the next water change - I add some of it to the first bucket of water change water - 4 gallons added gradually because I'm so weak, because otherwise they are going to get hit with a PH change of 6.x to 9.0 in one bucketful of water. That CAN'T be good for them - so you see the predicament I'm in? I can't wait for peat moss, that would be a little too slow.

Doing the best I can. I just bought an electronic PH meter but I've got to calibrate it at different PH's before I use it but want to read up on it first and about buffering etc - all those things I hated in General Chemistry. Looks like it has to be calibrated frequently so since they only give you one tiny packet of powder trying to see how that's done - I guess I have to find containers for all that calibration water and starting to wonder if it's worth it.

As an aside - we (a few of us anyway) get beat up a little about not doing everything perfectly, yet when I see these "Tank of the Month's" I'm usually shocked by the winner. Is it just a beauty or uniqueness contest or are we really judging the best aquariums. Most to me look like a mess of too many plants, not enough open swim space and not enough isolated cover areas for fish that need that. I guess I'll just buy a bunch of Disney princess ornaments and stick them in my aquarium. Oh and their numbers are always so perfect! Anyway not to be mean or a sore loser or anything - I realize each person is judging by their own standards and we have no way of controlling the criteria they are using. I am also a sucker for a beautiful unique looking tank, even if it can't really hold many fish in it.

Oh, another interesting statement I read on LiveAquaria.com website was that aggressive fish should be kept over crowded because it keeps the aggression down - they don't know who to direct their anger to - so they just get confused and don't attack anybody LOL. I thought I'll remember that the next time I need to justify to myself why I'm keeping 6 semi-aggressive and aggressive fish in a 29 gallon tank (these are 6" fish) and I just feel terrible that I don't have a structurally sound place to put a 55 gallon tank. Especially when they are the only group that feel bold enough to eat from my hand and they seem to have such a boring surrounding. (They all want their own caves from what I can tell - but there isn't enough room).

Sorry for rambling Byron - I just get in moods like this and know you might be the only one that appreciates it (even if you hate me for my "better living through chemistry" attitude)

 

[Byron]

My goal in posting is to help others understand the issue, and always solely for the benefit of the fish. I think it is safe to say that most aquarists have no understanding of fish physiology, because if they did, they would then understand why "x" or "y" is so dangerous to the poor fish that are forced into whatever we give them. I know it takes a long time to learn about this, it took me years, but it is science and this is a scientific hobby.

Oh, another interesting statement I read on LiveAquaria.com website was that aggressive fish should be kept over crowded because it keeps the aggression down - they don't know who to direct their anger to - so they just get confused and don't attack anybody LOL. I thought I'll remember that the next time I need to justify to myself why I'm keeping 6 semi-aggressive and aggressive fish in a 29 gallon tank (these are 6" fish) and I just feel terrible that I don't have a structurally sound place to put a 55 gallon tank. Especially when they are the only group that feel bold enough to eat from my hand and they seem to have such a boring surrounding. (They all want their own caves from what I can tell - but there isn't enough room).

This is false thinking, and plain fish cruelty. It is doable with rift lake cichlids, that is a very different scenario. But with most freshwater fish species as soon as the aquarist pushes them into an environment that is contrary to what they "expect," it causes stress at the very least. And stress weakens the immune system, affects the fish's metabolism, and goodness knows what else. Stress is the direct cause of 95% of aquarium fish disease issues. That in itself should give everyone pause for thought.

As an aside - we (a few of us anyway) get beat up a little about not doing everything perfectly, yet when I see these "Tank of the Month's" I'm usually shocked by the winner. Is it just a beauty or uniqueness contest or are we really judging the best aquariums. Most to me look like a mess of too many plants, not enough open swim space and not enough isolated cover areas for fish that need that. I guess I'll just buy a bunch of Disney princess ornaments and stick them in my aquarium. Oh and their numbers are always so perfect! Anyway not to be mean or a sore loser or anything - I realize each person is judging by their own standards and we have no way of controlling the criteria they are using. I am also a sucker for a beautiful unique looking tank, even if it can't really hold many fish in it.

This is why I rarely vote in these contests. I simply cannot vote for an aquarium where the fish's expectations and requirements are not being met. I don't care how "beautiful" this or that tank may be artistically; it is a permanent home for the fish in it, and that is all that should matter. That does not mean you cannot use castles or this or that, not at all; if these can provide something the fish requires, they are just as good as a chunk of wood. But there is much more of real importance to an aquarium than how it looks.

 

[Fishmanic]

Jan and Bryon...you both should enter our Tank of the Month contest. Byron...you really should show the rest of us how you think fish should be properly housed by entering the contest and describing your setup. You do have very nice natural looking tanks. And Jan...keep improving your tank and you just might win one of these months. If you don't enter...you can't win.