What Are These? (name The Algeas)

[garuf]

and just how do I go about getting rid of them?
(sorry about the hideous state of my tank)







placement in room should it be a factor.

 

[JamesC]

Mainly rhizoclonium and green spot algae. Take a look at http/www.theplantedtank.co.uk/algae.htm for solutions.

Probably doesn't help where it is placed especially if it gets direct sunlight.

James

 

[garuf]

thanks james, how do I go about putting these into action? I've got blue green too so what should I do first?

 

[garuf]

nobody?

 

[Underwurlde]

Nice little tank you have there.

Q's first...

What is the size of the tank?
What substrate do you have?
What kind of & how many fish? What & how often do you feed them?
What kind of filter?
What kind of & how many plants?
What lights do you use (be exact if you can). How long do you leave them on for.
Do you use CO2?
Do you use an airstone?
Do you dose any ferts? If so, what?
Do you know your tap water & tank stats?

Algae is beaten by (in the long term) lots of steadily growing plants that take up all the nutrients. I'd say for this reason that direct sunlight is not a huge problem & can be beneficial (it's what nature intended for plants after all).

The BGA can be beaten with a 3-day black out using a couple of bin liners, but if you don't tackle the 'imbalances' that casued the algae in the first place it will come back. Also, because BGA is indeed a bacteria, it can be killed using an antibacterial such as Maracyn (safe for filter bacteria). I have tried out both methods and both work, the most effective seemed to be the Maracyn....

Use of a UV sterilizer can also be very effective against some types of algae.

Andy

PS, you also have a snail infestation. Looks like physa acuta.

 

[garuf]

What is the size of the tank?

18x12x12 inches

What substrate do you have?

ada aquasoil amazonia

What kind of & how many fish? What & how often do you feed them?

11 fish 4 ottos 7 dwarf neon rainbow fish, 5 tiger shrimp 1 crab cuisine every 3 days 3flakes of aquarian fish flakes every evening, cucumber every day for the otto's

What kind of filter?

eden 501 with purigen bag.

What kind of & how many plants?

lots of riccia hc and micrantium umberosum and e tuennelus plus java moss plagnamium and monosolenium tennerum

What lights do you use (be exact if you can). How long do you leave them on for.

photoperiod of 11am till 7pm 8 hours, interpet daylight plus 36w power compact.

Do you use CO2?

yes, pressurised not set up properly yet don't understand how to reach the suggested 30ppm.

Do you use an airstone?

no

Do you dose any ferts? If so, what?

yes, kno3 10ml mgso4 5ml and k2po5 5ml and traces mixed and used as instructed in the EI article pinned hereDo you know your tap water & tank stats?no, only that the waters hard and comes out the tap at ph 8.1

PS, you also have a snail infestation. Looks like physa acuta.

yup, ramshorn and pondsnails, I clear out as many as I can everytime I do maintanance but they always come back

 

[Underwurlde]

Looks good so far.

3 points....

i) So you are going with EI, what don't you understand about getting to STABLE CO2 @30ppm? This is very important and CO2 may be the root cause of your probs... No point dosing until you get this sorted so may want to cut back for now as well as the lighting...

ii) When you do get the CO2 running, go back to full dosing & up the lighting period to 10hrs min.

iii) Did you wait a period of time for the AquaSoil to leech? If so, how long?

Andy

PS kill those sodding snails, get some Flubenol 15 in there.. Worked for me!

 

[garuf]

to leech? leech what, ammonia? I waited a month before starting to dose EI, I was running diy co2 then now I've moved over to pressurised its a bit more complicated, Getting it stable isn't the problem its working out the ammount of co2 I'm dosing I've got a bubble counter and a drop checker but when I reached the mushy peas colour most people recommend on the drop checker the rainbow fish where gasping and flittering about as though they where out of water,terrifying I really thought id killed them all. most of the algae I have and there's a fair few have been present since growth picked up, I expected them to just die back but no amount of removal or tinkering seems to make any difference.I understand that aquasoil has high nitrate levels without dosing so should I alter my dosing as another forums member suggested? and if I do what ratio should I be reaching in each fert? ps I like the snail's they help with the algae

 

[Underwurlde]

Hmmm Ok.

to leech? leech what, ammonia?

Yes, ammonia. Usual thing to do is lay it down with just dechlor'd water & filter running, and bung in some 'starter' plants - fast growing weeds really such as Cabomba Caroliniana, hornwort etc.

The ammonia leeched reaches quite a spike and is therefore not a good idea to have fish in there, but the leeched ammonia will feed the starter plants. However, ammonia is excellent algae food, hence the idea of using weeds for starter plants to prevent any algae getting a foot hold in the tank (or darkening the tank during the leeching perioid). Then after about 3 to 4 weeks, gradually replace the starter plants with what you want in there.

Not doing this may be how the algae got a foot hold over your plants do you think?

Now in your case you have got various algae in there. I would clear as much of the algae out & then put some starter plants in & see what happens. I would try to block direct sunlight access to the tank until the plants have recovered and the algae gone.

As for the CO2, I wonder why 30ppm is making your fish gasp? I wonder if your dropper is OK. What is the pH and kH of the tank water? Many people advocate running CO2 with the lighting timer, thus shutting the CO2 off at night (true advocates of this method would then say to bring the CO2 back on an hour or so before the lights come on).

Did you ever reach stable 30ppm with DIY? If not, what do you think you had?

Andy

 

[garuf]

Hmmm Ok.

to leech? leech what, ammonia?

Yes, ammonia. Usual thing to do is lay it down with just dechlor'd water & filter running, and bung in some 'starter' plants - fast growing weeds really such as Cabomba Caroliniana, hornwort etc.

The ammonia leeched reaches quite a spike and is therefore not a good idea to have fish in there, but the leeched ammonia will feed the starter plants. However, ammonia is excellent algae food, hence the idea of using weeds for starter plants to prevent any algae getting a foot hold in the tank (or darkening the tank during the leeching perioid). Then after about 3 to 4 weeks, gradually replace the starter plants with what you want in there.

Not doing this may be how the algae got a foot hold over your plants do you think?

Now in your case you have got various algae in there. I would clear as much of the algae out & then put some starter plants in & see what happens. I would try to block direct sunlight access to the tank until the plants have recovered and the algae gone.

As for the CO2, I wonder why 30ppm is making your fish gasp? I wonder if your dropper is OK. What is the pH and kH of the tank water? Many people advocate running CO2 with the lighting timer, thus shutting the CO2 off at night (true advocates of this method would then say to bring the CO2 back on an hour or so before the lights come on).

Did you ever reach stable 30ppm with DIY? If not, what do you think you had?

Andy

I wouldn't say that the algae arrived because of the lack of fast growers since the 2 largest masses of plants are both fast growers, the E. tennelus and the MU, but your guess is probably better than mine since this is my first ever planted tank.
The starter plant idea seems like a good call except for the fact I dont have enough substrate space to plant any all I can really do is keep removing algae and hope the plants out run it.
Ill remove as much algae as possible then run a black out, that way ive got the biggest problem the blue green out the way, then what is the best to try and rid? the blanket weed stuff the brown gunky stuff or the green spot?
while I'm at it I'll also cover the window to make sure no light is getting to the tank other than what I supply.

I run my co2 to come on before the lights come on and to go of an hour before they go off I really don't understand how it is that it only affects the rainbow fish yet my ottos and shrimp are totally un-phased.
the ph of my water curently is 7.2 (i've had the co2 of since I gassed my fish giving them more time to recover) I don't think I have a test for KH, (and to be honest I'm not sure what KH is) so I'm afraid I cant tell you that.

It could be that my dropper is inaccurate I can't get distilled water so I used tap water that had been left for 24 hours.
I very much doubt I reached a stable 30ppm with diy since it was sporadic at best and never really did work as planned, although I did see massive amounts of growth as soon as I started using it.

 

[Underwurlde]

I think you suspect what's wrong in your set up, no?

CO2, CO2 and thrice CO2!

3 things to bear in mind:

1) Plants 'Buffer': Plants are slow to react to changes, algae very quick and this makes the sodding stuff take advantage of changes very quickly. In your case CO2 fluctuations. Plants 'buffer' nutrients - they store them and if thier environment changes they rely on this buffer while they adjust.

2) Algae vs Plants: If plants are growing they can out-compete algae for the available nutrients - they also release chemicals to inhibit algae growth. Same for algae - if doing well and are seen to be taking over they can also chemically inhibit plant growth. Hence stamp on the algae first before trying to get rid of it.

3) Plant Nutrient Chain. Give plants light to grow to out compete alage: Next thing they want is carbon, i.e. CO2, if not provided then you get inhibited plant growth (regardless of the presence of ferts etc). Then when they get their carbon they then need to use ferts. It's a chain, remove any one and the plants don't grow. For plants with point 1) in mind, fiddle with any of these will also inhibit plant growth, algae takes over and then point 2) becomes an issue.

------------

So, STABLE CO2 @ 20ppm to 30 ppm is needed for EI, but how to measure?

CO2 (ppm) = 3 x dKH x 10 ^ (7.0 - pH). (so if your pH is 7.2, you're wanting 10dKH or 180mg/L & 16dKH or 285mg/L).

pH is easy to measure but KH is a real bugger.

So what is this KH a measure of exactly & why such a pain? (Copy & paste time, thanks to whoever...)

KH is Carbonate Hardness & refers to the hardness derived mainly from carbonate and bicarbonate ions and directly reflects the buffering capacity of the water. So the kH measures the buffering capacity or the ability to absorb and neutralize added acid without major changes to pH. Think of buffering capacity as a big sponge, the higher the buffering, the bigger the sponge. Also think of it like this: kH or carbonate hardness is the measure of the buffering capability of water, usually provided by a combination of factors including hydrogen ions, hydroxyl ions, Bicarbonate, Calcium ions, etc. It's the waters ability to resist change in pH by buffering.

As we add CO2 to water, it forms carbonic acid, which lowers the pH. The more CO2 that gets dissolved into the water, the lower the pH.

Working to raise the pH of the water is the KH. While KH refers to Carbonate Hardness, what is really measured by a standard KH test kit is really the buffering capacity. In 'most' water sources, the buffering is provided by Carbonate. In that case, buffering capacity and KH are the same thing. Assuming a constant amount of CO2, a higher KH, will result in a higher pH.

----------------

Now can you see the problem? The drop test kits measure KH based on the ASSUMPTION that the ONLY buffering agent in the water is a Bicarbonate source (see underlined). IF not, chuck away the results! And hence CO2 ppm measurement based on crappy KH measurement - rubbish too, ignore it.

This is why dropper checkers evolved. You create a pure source of water with an ABSOLUTE known carbonate (ONLY) hardness that you DON'T have to measure (becasue as we all know measuring KH is crap / expensive to do correctly). THEREFORE tapwater is NO GOOD - you do NOT know what is in it. THEREFORE chuck away the results. This is problably why your fish were gasping, God knows what levels of CO2 were in there, it could have been anything.

---------------

So therein lies the problem perhaps? Get a good dropper checker reference liquid in there (CLEAN it before replacing the reference solution) - you absolutely HAVE to use de-ionised water.

Other than that, get a KH measuring kit and we'll take it from there and base the results on water from the tap assuming a CO2 content of 2 to 3ppm and use that as a referene to further measurements of KH in the tank.

 

[garuf]

well!
hahaha you've given me allot to think about, I personally thought that it was either my ferts or co2 and since ferts come last it must be co2!
where do I get di-ionised water? I've got the solution for the drop checker.
i'll then turn off my co2 and wait 24 hours for the drop checker to return to blue then check ph, this will give me a more accurate reading right?
then I can reset up and reach my recommended co2 levels? then after a week I can start rerunning ferts? then I can get down to ridding algae once I'm stable? I assume by "stamping" on algae you mean reaching a balance/stable conditions?

 

[Underwurlde]

Good, u get my drift and I'm not babbling on.... (there's a pleasant change then ).

where do I get di-ionised water?

Start a new thread perhaps and ask the question. I can't remember but if memory serves you need a lot - the more the merrier (well, the more accurate actually).

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=169942
http/www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumap...html#post244534

I've got the solution for the drop checker.

How did you make that? Are you talking about the pH drop test liquid from a kit?

i'll then turn off my co2 and wait 24 hours for the drop checker to return to blue then check ph, this will give me a more accurate reading right?

Erm, not quite sure what you mean there. That sounds like a different test to me, the 'One Point pH Method for CO2 Measurement'?

then I can reset up and reach my recommended co2 levels?

When you are happy that you have an accurate means of measuring CO2 then yes.

then after a week I can start rerunning ferts?

Hell, why wait!?!?

then I can get down to ridding algae once I'm stable?

That's the plan.

I assume by "stamping" on algae you mean reaching a balance/stable conditions?

No. See point 2) above. This is why I suggested cleaning out as much of the algae FIRST before attempting to make the plants grow (after sorting the CO2 out). None of this will work well (if at all) if algae is still in there, thriving away and dominating the ecosystem thus suppressing the plants ability to grow.

All this stuff is what planty people refer to as 'The Balance': Get all these balances right (No Algae -> Good lighting -> Stable CO2 -> Complete availability of ferts = Plants grow = No algae). The only thing is, getting this stuff right is a bit of a git!

Cheers,

Andy

 

[garuf]

How did you make that? Are you talking about the pH drop test liquid from a kit?

its just a solution that came with the drop checker see this link,
http/cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...em=250084395754

Erm, not quite sure what you mean there. That sounds like a different test to me, the 'One Point pH Method for CO2 Measurement'?

sorry, I was under the assumption I should allow all the co2 to dissolve out of the water before I take a ph test this way I don't have co2 present and it's easier to work out ppm

When you are happy that you have an accurate means of measuring CO2 then yes.

that seems fair enough, ill try and get D-I water and then does.

Hell, why wait!?!?

ill restart dosing as soon as I've ran a black out for the blue green.

No. See point 2) above. This is why I suggested cleaning out as much of the algae FIRST before attempting to make the plants grow (after sorting the CO2 out). None of this will work well (if at all) if algae is still in there, thriving away and dominating the ecosystem thus suppressing the plants ability to grow.

ahhhh I see, ill keep up ripping the algae out then, best get the tongs and tooth brush back out

 

[Underwurlde]

re: That ebay link item. That is a really good price (even for the glass dropper alone).

I cannot believe it suggests the use of tap water - That's criminal!

Note: The solution for these things tend to go 'off'.

As my link above shows, you can make your own really accurate solution, but for this you need weighing scales:
Do you have, or know of anyone who has access to really accurate weighing scales - accurate to within 1/100th of a gram?

Andy