What Am I Doing Wrong With My Poor Plants

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minxfishy

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Tank is a juwel rio 400, 105g, running the juwel internal and today added an ex1200 for flow more than anything.

2 x54W t5's on for 7-8hrs a day (too much, not enough?). Fine gravel substrate and nothing else. As recommended been adding tpn+ originally just the 40ml a week, then 30ml every couple of days and now Ive changed it to 6ml a day to see if that helped as the plants are dying, turning yellow and in the case of windelow and java fern, turning brown and dying. Vallis is pretty ratty, dying from the top of the leaves downwards, wisteria is turning brown on the leaves although Im not sure if thats because its dying or from brown algae, brown algae also effecing some anubias, now I know thats normal for a newly set up tank, so Im not worried, BUT Im now getting green algae appearing on the glass too, only small amounts buts its starting to grow. Am I dosing too much tpn+, or not enough or too many water changes, I change 50% every 5 days minimum, should I leave it longer or do more changes???

This is the reason I have given up on plants in the past as they die on me and I cant stand the look of dying plants, so I take them out, chuck em and get fakes, but I really want to get it right this time, help please.

Oh no co2 as I dont know where to start and really need to keep things simple.
 
Yellow leaves is often a nutrient deficiency (lack of iron).
Vallis will rot in some tanks but do well in others. It prefers and usually does better in harder alkaline water and often fails in soft acid water.
Lack of water movement can cause problems to Vallis and some other plants.
Not sure what is in TPN but you could try a different plant fertiliser. I like Sera Florena but there are plenty of other brands.
 
...as the plants are dying, turning yellow and in the case of windelow and java fern, turning brown and dying. Vallis is pretty ratty, dying from the top of the leaves downwards, wisteria is turning brown on the leaves although Im not sure if thats because its dying or from brown algae, brown algae also effecing some anubias, now I know thats normal for a newly set up tank, so Im not worried...

Sorry, but this doesn`t sound remotely normal to me.

Oh no co2 as I dont know where to start and really need to keep things simple.

This is a bit of a smoking gun. With all your plants turning to mush, your plants a carbon supplement. I suspect pressurised CO2 is the answer, or reduce your light intensity.

Dave.
 
Ive always got brown algae in my newly set up tanks, do didnt think anything of it, it usually disappears after a few weeks, although as its been a while since I bothered with real plants, it was easy to wipe off, which I cant with reall plants I guess?

So I need co2 then?

Colin, ph 7.8 and fairly hard I guess, never tested the gh/kh so cant give those.
 
I've always got that brown algae from the beginning too, very soft and fairly easy to wipe off plants but always comes back. What's it associated with?
 
I've always got that brown algae from the beginning too, very soft and fairly easy to wipe off plants but always comes back. What's it associated with?

I used to think it was associated with high silicates in an immature tank, which is what happened to me in my first ever tank a couple of years ago. However, ever since I have started tanks up with as much ammonia removal as possible in the initial stages, I never see it.

The odd occasion when I have seen it since, it is when I have added a brand new batch of ADA Amazonia, which leaches an awful lot of ammonia in to the watwer column for the first month or so.

Generally speaking, if you have algae, suspect your CO2, ammonia and light levels.

Dave.
 
Generally speaking, if you have algae, suspect your CO2, ammonia and light levels.

So when you, as someone experienced in playing with these 3 things say this, its hard for me, inexperienced, to know what to suspect about them, so I'm going to guess and you correct me...

For the ammonia you go to great lengths to do things you hope will lower it even lower than zero on a liquid test kit. There are at least 3 ways I think I've heard you do this:
1) You have high water water movement to keep all the water moving past your bacteria, either by 10x or higher filter turnover rates or koralias (those wide cone powerheads) or both.
2) You have lots of plants (70% substrate coverage or more) to be taking up some of the ammonia.
3) You sometimes use that that ammonia absorbing product that's like tiny foam balls and comes in a jar (can't remember.)

For the light levels, you match your light level to the low or high technique you're using. (But within that would you consider adjusting light level based on how many plants you have? (eg. Might 1 w/g still be too high for tanks with just a very few plants in them?)

For CO2, you'd suspect that your CO2 level might not be staying at an unvarying level, thus it might promote algae? Or is it just that there might not be enough? Or both?
 
I am watching this thread with great anticipation waterdrop.

Im trying my hardest with plants as well, and im trying to start small, a planted 10 gallon, with absurd filtration it has a sump with fuge!

Weekly 50% water changes
EXTREMELY careful about minimal firt additives
2.04 (ish... i estimated the fraction) WPG

i use a 2 liter soda bottle with my yeast mix attached to a bubble counter wall (the one with the little rails) which i change with every water change.

i even went against my better judgment and got that expensive substrate with all sorts of nutes ferts and gold and silver and platinum and a new Ferrari somewhere in it.

My plants AT BEST, grow "so so" ALWAYS have a bit of algae and sometimes, for no reason have complete absurd breakouts of BBA which causes me to just prune and toss the affected plant life. (i dont like doing this)

All media is EXTREMELY mature. As i said its running on a sump with media well over 2 years old.

My java moss grows at the rate of... not.
My swords only get so big then the leaves die out and new stuff comes in... slowly

I know that over ferting and over feeding can cause horrible algae outbreaks but i even have this area of greenish turquoise algae forming in long patches just above the substrate on the glass.

Inside the tank (its an oddballs tank for tetras with no home, i'm a sap for fishies with no home)
2 Tail light tetras (survivor)
1 peppermint platy (survivor)
1 CAE (its the only tank hes calm and happy in. don't ask me why, hes too big for it and he knows it.)
1 German Ram Cichlid in his early years (this guy came to me as a whoopsie from the LFS)

The fish arent stressed at all they all eat when i feed them and i do feed them properly. Ive gotten good at knowing exactly how much to feed them so it never touches the bottom of the tank. i feed them 3x a day.

Heres how things look. being a gardener i "know" how light works on plants and how they operate under different light cycles, longer cycles (20/4 and 18/6 for veg) (10/14 12/12) for bloom period. Yes my tanks are season tanks their lighting and timing changes based on the season. so right now its winter for us and coming onto spring in a month or so so im finishing up my harvest cycle (even though theres nothing to harvest this is the time to prune away the previous seasons growth)

6am moonlight shuts off

8am ambient light has been present for 2 hours and lights go up in both the tank and the refugium
Ammo check
PH check
10a-
11a-
12p-
1p-
2p- I relax along side the tank while feeding. Also i feed the fish ;)
3p-
4p-
5p-
6p-
7p-
730p- Full battery ammo / trite / trate -- Feeding
8p - Lights out.

So that's 12 on 12 off the perfect bloom cycle. keeping N low and P and K on the rise. This should incite vigerous green growth but its not. And anyone that grows anything knows, you cant just pop it back over to the veg cycle, the plant will most likely stress and shut down for 2 weeks OR MORE. In this case allowing algae to run rampant in your tank because the plants themselves wont be leeching as much nute from the soil or water.

EDIT: The N is not THAT low. Also, im waiting on an EC meter. correction, waiting on 230 USD for an EC / TDS, PH, Temp "constant rate" meter. (the ones you dont have to take out of the water except to calibrate the EC probe)

Im trying to transfer knowledge from one area to the other, seeing as i was working hydroponically i thought i had come armed with the ability to combat this algae and get my plants growing like on steroids.

::Scratches head::


-Chairman Wood
 
Waterdrop - What Dave Spencer is saying (and he is much more knowledgeable than me. I understand the rules but not the actual science;)) is that although ammonia is a source for plant N it is also an algae trigger. So what we try to do is remove organic sources (ammonia) and replace with inorganic sources.

Therefore we have high weekly water changes removing ammonia. We have much larger filters than a non planted tank would use and we use high turnover which keeps detritus off the substrate. We don't want the rubbish landing on the substrate. we want it in our filter so the high flow will keeps it in suspension longer.

I think the product you are talking about is Seachem Purigen which soaks up ammonia and then after a period of use (different for each tank) you 'recharge' it. Some of us use it, some don't but another bonus is it can improve water clarity quite considerably. You will say 'my water is crystal clear'. That's what we all said ;) Buy a small 100ml bag, put it in your filter and then reassess how clear it was ;)

We are trying to remove most of the ammonia but high plantmass does help the fight against algae considerably.

If you have just a few plants in your tank then the answer is simple. you need to go for the lowest light level possible with easy plants that can handle low light. No CO2 and minimal ferts. You have no choice if you want to be able to control the algae. We don't match the lights to our plantmass. We choose the light level for the purpose of the scape. If we want a long term lower maintenance then it is poitnles banging 3WPG above the tank. If we want a scape to run its course in 3 months be photographed, tear it down and onto the next scape then we use high light, but with highlight then we have to make sure CO2, Flow and dosing is bang up to scratch;)

With CO2 the first step is are you adding enough? More often than not this isn't the problem. We are injecting enough. The second and more common problem is 'Is the CO2 being distributed well enough' This is often the cause. We are injecting enough but it is not circulating very well and therefore there are fluctuating levels in other places within the tank. This is another reason for 10x + turnover. Not only does it allow you to use the flow to keep the bubbles in the water longer. It makes sure the whole tank is mixing well!!!


Wooden Chair - No idea on the sump thing but I haven't heard great things about their use in conjunction with planted tanks. Won't comment though as I have absolutely no experience;)

You are doing 50% water changes already. Stop being scared of the ferts and go EI. Then reduce at a later date when you have the setup sorted out and experience/confidence if you are still worried. If you are doing the 50% water changes already then you are already doing the one 'bane' of EI that deters most people from doing it.

BBA = poor CO2!!! either flow as stated above or the yeast setup not giving you enough. I would guess 'SUMP' (r.e. flow)

Over feeding and over ferting does not 'cause' algae outbreaks. I do both. I put more food in the tank than I need to and do not remove any!!! The flow/filter.plants does the work for me. Ammonia without good flow/filtration to keep it moving/remove it etc = algae. then it feeds on nutrient just as plants do.

That blue greenish stuff is Cyanobacteria not algae. This can be caused by low nitrates, dirty substrate, poor filter maintenance etc. People with very high flow EI setups don't know what Cyanobcateria unless they got it in an old setup pre-learning ;) The position you are suggesting would also suggest to me that sunlight is hitting the glass. If so just stick a line of black insulation tape so it coves the visible substrate layer and just above it. Take it off for photos and replace with new each time ;)

Don't associate gardening with an aquarium. You will confuse your self with contradictions. Gardening is easy. put something into the ground. throw ferts onto the soil. Leave it for a few months unless it needs watering :D Try that with an aquarium and you will come back to a mess :)

Don't bother doing that season cycle. lol. Pick a time and leave it to that. Tropical areas are basically the same light all year round!!!. Choose 8-10 hours and leave it.

No problem with doing dawn dusk etc but it won't improve plant growth. that is for you and you to enjoy. do you leave the moonlights on all night? If so do you stay up all night? Wasting electricity here ;)

I'm not reading the 'checks' throw those kits away or hide them in the cupboard. they will lead you to problems in this side of the hobby.

Keeping N low. Why? Go EI and stop worrying about N. the plants need loads and fish toxicity levels are out of reach of anyone who administers recommended levels alongside 50% water changes

Forget this 12/12 stuff. Listen to Aquatic Gardeners/scapers. Ask them if they ever pay any attention to the light cycle in nature!!!

Don't know what an EC meter is, do not understand TDS either. I don't need to and neither do you nor do you need to test these things. Read your water board's report if you are so worried. Theres not a lot in an aquarium needs testing that much that you cannot see with your own eyes.

Don't try to transfer knowledge from one area to another. That leads people to the wrong conclusions. Reefers who go planted struggle until they learn to let go of the control freakery that they do need with reefkeeping. These parameters are not of concern within the freshwater planted environment. If someone from Rugby League moved straight into Rugby Union they would look like an amateur. they have to totally learn a new set of rules, way of playing, different tactics, different speed of play etc. Same game in theory, very very diferent in practice ;)

Learn everything as if it is something completely new. You have 2 hobbies here. Your hobby is not just gardening!!! You have one hobby that is gardening and another that is aquatic gardening. 2 seperate and totally different disciplines. Associations lead to assumptions. Assumptions lead to problems and because you are assuming things you don't associate the problem to these areas because you already ruled them out as you are assuming they are already correct.

Try and grow your planted aquarium emersed. No algae. That is hydroponics. Some do that to start a tank without algae!!! Put the water in is a whole new world with new problems.

Lecture over. lol

AC
 
Well this is all very interesting and confusing to me, so back to my original questions, what do I need to do? Do I need to reduce the amount of hours I have my lights on? Increase ferts, currently dosing approx 6mls every day to reach the 40ml per week as per tpn+ dosing instructions, or reduce it?

If I need pressurized co2, what system do I need to get, that has everything in it I need, Ive had a look around the net, but to me its confusing, not being scientifically natured, Ive read the pinned articles too, but all I want to know is, what system to buy, how to set it up etc? The main problem plants are my twisted vallis and windelov fern, the java fern and moss is doing ok, some browning around the leave edges but lots of baby plants growing too, my wisteria seems to be coping ok and growing a little. Argh its all so complicated and I just want a step by step guide to what to do, in english for a numpty to follow :lol:
 
105 gallon tank and TPN+ is seriously expensive business!!! Are you sure you don't want to just mix it yourself? There are some different regimes requiring more and less nutrients and large or small water changes here. you can pick and choose your regime/fert to suit the targets you have:
[URL="http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/dosing-methods.htm"]http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/dosing-methods.htm[/URL]

6ml a day doesn't sound like a lot to me for that size tank. depends how many plants and lighting and CO2 you have. I used to dose 5ml daily on my 125LITRE but that was a long time ago.

I can't help you on the pressurised part I'm afraid. I use a disposable setup and that would not last very long on your tank :)

Its not complicated at all. Fear is blinding though. At the end of the day if you read EI a few times the basics are:

Use good light
It tells you how to mix the solutions and what goes into them
It tells you how much to add and when for your size tank
It tells you to do a 50% weekly water change
It tells you to maintain CO2 at 30ppm.

Sounds simple to me ;) basically someone else can advise you on the CO2 setup. You can make sure you have good light (not necessarily high light to achieve good light) You can read the mixture quantities and what goes into them. Others can help you source the substances. You can mix it up yourself with the help of some jewellery scales. You can perform 50% water changes. You can read your tank size on the dosing guideline and add the relevant amount on the days specified.

Most of this you can just read for yourself but are getting confused reading the science bits inbetween ;)

AC
 
im using 5 ml of TPN+ a day on my 125 litre, and CO2 will help. this will give the plants a better chance of growing and will keep algae at bay as the plants compete for the nutrients and steal them from the algae.
 

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