Turn Around Safe Times?

[goldfinger]

First I've moved tanks over before and its been complete substrate & filter.
My dilemma lies
I'm not using substrate yet in the new tank.
The new FX6 has been running over about two weeks in tandam with the classic 2017 in one fully stocked tank.
All water parameters are fine.
Did have a mini cycle when I first added the FX6, but all is stable.
The new 300ltr tank has just been filled I was always told to leave 24 hours so it can gas off.
I have the airstone running and chucked a few floating plants to stop the water stagnating if I was to leave it longer without a running filter.
I plan on picking up four potted plants on Thursday so hope some bacteria should start naturally.
so the question when do you think I can move two goldies and the FX6 over?
One part move i.e the filter first is in my mind for a week. Then the goldies?
The Ehiem should be okay to cope by itself as its the main Bio filter running the longest.
Or you think the FX6 should mature a bit longer in the old tank?
I plan on leaving the smaller fishes in the main tank by themselves or removing two zebra Danios into the 300 as since getting them they have grown like crazy!
Suggestions of a plan of action as I have started now!
 
 

 

[TwoTankAmin]

The most important factor to consider when trying to seed a new filter in an established tank is that neither the number of filters nor tha amount of media are what determines hte amount of nitrifying bacteria in a tank. That is determined by the bio-load in the tank/ This in terms translates to the amount of ammonia being created in the tank. And it is this that determines how much nitrifying bacteria there may be.
 
Increase the ammonia levels and the bacteria reproduce to meed the new food. Reduce the ammonia levels being generated and the reverse will occur. The former will usually happen faster than the latter.
 
When we put a new filter onto a tank to season it, what we are doing is trying to get the concentrations of bacteria to change their location within that tank system. As an aside one should understand that if the filter is not the most hospitable location for the bacteria, they will colonize elsewhere. They will live anywhere they can do well and the majority of them will be where they do best. this is nature at work.
 
So we add a new filter with fresh media and great flow. A bit of bacteria gets into the new filter and finding conditions good, will begin to multiply. But at the same time bacterial colonies which are in the least favorable locations will begin to die back. That is due to there being a limited supply of ammonia at the base of the food chain. Since the ammonia levels in the tank do not change, neither will the total amount of bacteria. All they will do is change the locations where they are is found in the greatest numbers.
 
What complicates all of this is we can only guess as to where in any tank the bacteria may be. One cannot simply assume this will all be in one's filter(s). If one has too small a filter, if one does not keep it clean enough that it gets good flow etc. then the bacteria will be multiplying on hard surfaces, on one's substrate or decor. They will live anyplace the get what they need delivered to them in the water. For example, if your situation is such that the new filter is a much better home than the old one, then you can easily have more bacteria in the new vs the old. The upshot of all this is one needs to monitor levels in old tank to insure the amount of bacteria being removed is not so great as to create an ammonia etc. problem.
 
We do have one nice option when moving over a newly seeded filter to the new tank. because the new tank does not yet hold fish etc. we can dose some ammonia in it to determine what the capacity of that filter might be. If we add one or two ppm of ammonia and see what happens, we will know exactly where things stand in the new tank. If we are not seeing the ammonia turned to nirtate inside 24 hours, we know that we may need to do a bit of a mini-cyle to get things up the strength. This should be a pretty quick process because the new filter does contain a decent amount of bacteria even if it is not enough. So we will often find that an ammonia addition or two brings a tank to as cycled as we need it fairly fast.
 
Bear in mind that both types of bacteria can double in under a day. The ammonia ones do so faster than the nitrite ones. However, in cases of decent seeding of bacteria, a half cycled tank should straighten itself out in a mater of a day or two. And if you have live plants and are not planning to stock a tank all at once, you need less bacteria present to make the tank safe. Where we might normally do a fishless cycled using 2 to 3 ppm of ammonia, in the case of lighter stocking and seeding, 1 to 2 ppm would be just fine.
 
The one thing to avoid is removing too much bacteria from the established tank, not realizing we have done so and then not bothering to test it. Make sure you monitor both the old and the new tanks for a bit and you should usually be fine. 

 

[goldfinger]

Yep I was over thinking the whole situation and decided the parameters were good enough and the FX6 was coping well in the smaller tank.
That said I moved over the zebras Danio's (being hardest) for a few days and parameters were still good even though I have Nitrate in the tap water already @ 10-15ppm.
From what I can tell the turnaround of Nitrite to Nitrate is fast about 24hours as I was monitoring the parameters in the past, but only thing that throws me is everything is diluted big time!
Left Minnows about 6 in the smaller tank as they feel better in that environment due to it being the right conditions, plus keeping the Ehiem 600 alive via Ammonia from the Minnows.
The Goldies went right in today and all is good parameters have never been an issue just like you said what type of bacteria colonised which filter and instead wanted to just start the new tank regardless of water changes needed. That was the main reason behind my decision the god dam water changes on 300litres.
Problem fixed, ordered a water butt 150litre on a roller platform for it to sit on and it’s completely mobile.
The Ehiem 1048 pump I have lying around is coming into play and the pump will help move the water from the butt into the tank. (10 litres a minute)
My biggest problem was I don't like removing fish just to change water and I definitely do not like de-chlorinator concentrated then add water to fill a tank. The worst I've seen is someone plumbed the water direct to the filter and poured de-chlorinator into the half tank! This way the water can sit to room temperature and not shock them (being winter).
Moved most of the old plants into this new tank and have more on the way by Thursday to suck up some Nitrates.
I have 11oz of Chemi-pure elite on hand if I get into trouble, but too early as long as I can keep up water changes over the next month every other day (IF NEEDED) I'll be okay for a mini cycle.
Good point on the other tank as I did a 50% water change when cleaning up and testing every other day for parameters and TBH the nitrates were dropping in a safer range soon as the goldies have been moved across so happy that all went well so far........!
I've adopted a feeding every other day and this works for me in the past essentially trying to limit the waste or Ammonia so if the bacteria needs to catch up they can process only what they can eat. 
Being newish fish leaning there eating patterns and what they favour is a part of the fun for me and if there is uneaten food due to family members being to free with the food it gets hovered up after 5mins of them eating. Hence there is no substrate at the moment and I can see waste and food on the tank floor easily.
I’ve been looking at Nitrate reactors and need to create (an oxygen less) vacuum for this particular type of bacteria to feed on Nitrates, but the disadvantages are the possible sulphur created by the process and it might be too risky?

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Denitrifying bacteria are a different topic. I wont go into huge detail but can tell you sulfer is not an issue as long as there is nitrate. the bacteria involved can function using free ogygen, using bound oxygen (the Os in the NO3 aka nitrate) and when neither of these is available, they turn to sulfates. When they do this they produce hydrogen sulfide which we usually call rotten egg gas.
 
One way to get denitrifying bacteria to work in a tank is to use medial designed to encourage them. What all should understand is if you have an established tank with lots of microorganisms living in their biofilms, you have some denitrifying bacteria at work in the biofilm. However, this is usually not enough to handle nitrate problems. For that you need them in greater numbers and that takes special media.
 
Look into SeaChem Matrix or Sera Siporax as examples.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

sulfer = sulfur /|\ - DOH

 

[goldfinger]

Colour color Sulphur sulfur LOL! 
Thanks for the advice TTA on the Matrix I've been justifying the cost of that stuff to myself

  and just ordered 2litres of the stuff.
The Chemi Pure Elite is cheaper, but realised even though it can last to 6 months, reality in my water it lasts for about 1 month.
Not sure about the bleaching of the Matrix to reactivate the Zoelite?
Once it arrives I will monitor the Nitrate daily for a week and report back on the results my chemi-pure elite reduced the Nitrate by 50% in a two days, but it was short lived as it contains carbon and DD resin.
Apparently the Matrix takes at least a week to kick in, but it depends on the water quality in the first place?
Jay

 

[TwoTankAmin]

The matrix is slow for a reason. All denitrifying media of this type will be. What happens is that the media is first colonized by all sorts of bacteria. There will be more of them over time. This will include facultative aerobes. And these will be using free oxygen along with the other aerobes etc. As biofilms build up in the pieces of media what will happen is those closest to where the water enters their world will use up all the oxygen in it before it runs all the way into the center of the media on its way out. And when there are sufficient total bacteria built up within a piece of media such that all the free oxygen is used, those facultative aerobes are able to use bound oxygen. And this does reach them in the form of nitrate- NO3. When they use the bound O in the nitrate, what is left is harmless nitrogen in gaseous form and it will work its way out of the water and back into the air.
 
This process relies on the specific design (and quantity) of the media to work. But as you can see, the onset of denitrification does take time. So, you should not clean the media until it becomes clogged. The organics that get into it will be met by bacteria which will break them down. And they will become food for other bacteria and microorganisms inside the media. So you need to change your approach to filtration from what we have been told almost from the day we started keeping fish. Besides not cleaning the Matrix until absolutely necessary, you should not use filter floss. The stuff it would trap and then would be manually  removed from the system when you replace/rinse the floss is what you want to feed to the bacteria in your bio media.
 
The sort of media you just bought doesn't wear out easily, it doesn't need to be cleaned often and it never needs to be recharged. However, it will not begin removing nitrate instantly or even close to that. Until it does, water changes will be your friend. The neat thing is, your water should be as clear and likely clearer than when one uses floss and rinses media weekly or even monthly. This sort of system also works better with slower flow than most are used to having through their filters, But often this is because they have less media surface area and the filter doubles as the circulation engine as well. In your setup with the matrix, slow down the flow and if you require more current/circulation, use a small pump or powerhead. The latter can add oxygen via surface agitation or a venturi. The point is, slower flow through bio-media gets the most efficient results, so use it this way and get any further needed water movement from other equipment.
 
I can tell you I am in the process of redoing almost all of my filtration after close to 15 years doing it the "standard" way. I am going the Poret Foam route and doing matten filters and canisters using only that media. The best explanation of it all is probably on the swisstropicals.com site:
 
http/www.swisstropicals.com/library/aquarium-biofiltration/
http/www.swisstropicals.com/library/mattenfilter/

 

[goldfinger]

I've already stuck one litre of Eheim substrat pro and Fluval noodles surely thats simular to Matrix?
Sometimes I get confused as maybe I should have bought Seachem Purgen thats the one for bleaching & re-charging correct?
You can see plus the very last sponge is carbon with Chemi Pure Elite.
What do you recomend going forward as the finer sponges are top basket, middle is bio & checmical ones are bottom on the FX6 Corse is the whole diameter of the basket.



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[goldfinger]

This arrived in the post today and @U$45.00 for 2Litres is quite expensive lets hope it can deliver?
Whats the best way to deliver the Matrix I don't want it inline with the FX6 this will distrupt my flow.
 
First option I have a 3ft UV bar that could hold about 1-1/2litre of this stuff with an inlet and outlet pre built into the bar, so would need a decent pump, but this will mean running another set of intake hose and outake ones for the tank.
Second option stick into one of the baskets and replace the Fluval noodles or Eheim Mech pro?
Third option just use my Eheim 600 classic empty it out stick the Matrix in and run it in tandum with the FX6?
 

 

[TwoTankAmin]

No need for Purigen. Take out the carbon and chemi pure first and replace it with matrix.
 

 
BET surface area measurements indicate that Matrix™ contains nearly 10 times the specific surface area of Substrat Pro

 
Use the matrix instead the substrate and fluval noddles as well. If you have a cycled tank, you need to replace the media gradually. Start with putting where the carbon and chemipure is. Then wait a couple of weeks and start to replace the Substrat and Fluval noodles. Take 4 weeks replacing 1/4 each week. End up with all matrix in the holders.
 
Put the blue sponge wherever the water forst stars passing thru the media. I would try not to use the white pad. If your water isn't as clear as you like, then add it as the final ting the water passes through returning to the tank.
 
If this is all new- then load it up in the final configuration and cycle it that way.

 

[goldfinger]

Okay TTA I'll slowly transistion the stuff over from what I can tell the carbon pad is due to come out by end of this month anyways and the chemi pure elite only works for about 1 week in my tank as it was a small bag. so I'll start with that but those are in the last basket. The new sponge is for the Classic but the FX6 has so many mechanical sponges surrounding the baskets it not an issue unless I use the floss I have so no bits fall down to the impeller motor damaging it?
I'm going to use the Matrix without a media bag as this should be quicker for flow rates though out the media to grow bacs.

 

[goldfinger]

Update:
My FX6 was left off for too long and had to move the fish back due to rising Nitrite levels.(Mini cycle in situ)
I stuck some Matrix into the ehiem and its good the nitrate has started to fall back abit in a week.
I removed the plastic bio balls to get room and mixed them up with the noodles on the bottom and seems to be working well!

 

[goldfinger]

WOW Sunday evening the Nitrite has finally dropped and its cycled taken exactly 4weeks and two days but the filter was running with the Ehiem for 1 week and three days!
5 weeks and five days!