Suggestions For My Fish Tank

[clovis]

So here is my second tank ever. 
Like I am sure many people out there, I did the old get a goldfish and a bowl for my seven year old boy, realize that bowls are inapropriate for goldfish, get a 10 gallon tank because why get anything bigger, without knowing about cycling a tank, losing two goldfish, and realizing that you can keep other fish than goldfish, get the aquabug and am now the proud owner of a 20 gallon tank.  Leading me to constantly say that that was the most expensive goldfish ever bought
I have:
5 tetras
4 panda corys
2 assasin snails
2 CPO crayfish 
 
Thinking that to finish off the tank I will probably get  one more tetra and one more cory so that the schools are slightly larger, andi deally I think I would like to add one more school of fish, or either one slightly larger fish (i suppose it should be a top fish, being that the bottom and middle are relatively full).  Any suggestions?  Does this seem like an OK plan or am I already starting to overcrowd?  All suggestions and advice more than welcome.
Cheers

 

[clovis]

Eeeek!
Just went to Aqadvisor to see how I was doing on the stocking of my tank, and if there was indeed room for a few more and I got this warning
 

 
 

• Warning: Dwarf Orange Crayfish is too aggressive to co-exist withNeon Tetra.
• Warning: Dwarf Orange Crayfish is too aggressive to co-exist withPanda Cory.
• Note: Dwarf Orange Crayfish is capable of killing and eating most smaller bottom dwelling species especially during the night. Be careful when you are selecting other species to go along with this species. They have to be each given their own hiding spots, and the tank must be decorated with that in mind.

 
Is that right?
My LFS certainly had no issue with selling me a pair of cpo s.  I will say that their aggressiveness is startling.  If I put my face up to the tank, the cpo rather than retreating into it's hiding place tends to raise it's pincers and move forward!

 

[dave840f1]

Take CPO's back then use a different LFS in the future

 

[the_lock_man]

Definitely take the crayfish back, whilst I hate that website with a passion, on this occasion they are spot-on. Pincers and fins do not mix.
 
Buy an additional 2 panda cories, and an additional neon tetra, then something for the top - a few male endlers, or a dwarf gourami, or a honey gourami, or a betta (siamese fighting fish), those would be my suggestions.
 
Whereabouts in France do you live? Just cos I'm nosey, but also because I love France.

 

[clovis]

Hi all,
Thanks for the info about the CPOs.  I will I suppose take them back.  Which really really bums me out, as I really think they are fantastic creatures.
I guess I'll try to suss out the reasoning that they sold me an inaporpriate tank mate for my fish to see what I should do from now on.  I would really be bummed to have to eschew this LFS as 1) it really is a mom and pop operation (actually it's a pop, and gorgeous daughter operation which may be influencing me) 2) it's very close to my home 3) Last time I went there to look into replacing my filter, they had no interest in selling me one of their filters, rather they took the time to give mine a thorough cleaning, topped up the carbon, fixed a defective part and sent me on my way free of charge 4) my other option is a chain store (Trufaut) (though in their defence when I went there last week the salesperson was very knowledgeable, and took a great amount of time with me and another customer) 
 
Hi LockMan I am born and raised in Paris, have spent 20 years in the US (NY, Los Angeles, Massachusetts, Rhode Island) and am now back in Paris.
 
Thanks for the advice for what fish to get to complete my tank.  Will look into it.  Are there any small schooling fish that are top fish?  I ask mostly because psychologically when there are distinctly individual fish in our tank (such as the goldfish we used to have) when one dies, it really is devastating to my 7 year old.  In a school, the fish don't get names, and it thus stings a lot less to lose one.
 
Once again thanks all for the advice here

 

[attibones]

Having an additional schooling species would be really pushing the limits for this tank, so you are better off to get a fish which can stand on its own, as Lock man said. If you do decide to get a betta, watch out for fin nipping from the tetras and excessive chasing from the betta. Betta fish can sometimes be tricky in communities, but I have had several who did well with them.

If you go the endler route, as TLM suggested, you could have a few of them as opposed to one which would help with the problem you've mentioned, in case you lose one. I would personally go with the endlers. You'd have a pretty active tank with plenty of colors, which is usually the ticket to keep kids involved

Just want to be sure though that you know to add any additional fish slowly, so as not to overwhelm the filter at once.

 

[the_lock_man]

Yeah, definitely the endlers - you could probably get 4 or 5 of them, but males only. (A) The females are a lot less colourful and (B) they breed like wildfire, and will soon overload your tank.
 
Ah, Paris, a beautiful city, I have visited twice, the more recent being a day trip whilst staying in the Val de Loire. My family and I enjoyed a leisurely lunch on the banks of the Seine before going up la Tour Eiffel. Remind me to go back there some time, would you!

 

[RCA]

I would really be bummed to have to eschew this LFS

I have just read your predicament. I guess from what you have stated that generally your LFS is good to you. Maybe they had not had the CPOs before and thus may not be aware of their behaviour? I tend to prefer to ask questions to understand a situation before just deciding a place is no good. We are all learning all the time and although an LFS should know what they are doing, sometimes they can get it wrong too. It is how they then respond to the mistake not only with yourself but also with others.

See my recent post regarding the Superfish Betta Box, as I felt the LFS did the right thing in this instance.
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/437252-superfish-betta-box/

 

[Baccus]

What sort of tetra do you have? Some tetras can get quite large while others like cardinals will stay smaller. Just asking because depending on what type of tetra depends on how many more to add to your current school/ shoal.
Also what size footprint does your tank have? A tall 20 gallon tank is going to hold less fish (depending on the species some fish prefer swimming up and down as opposed to horizontial) than say a long tank that suits active fish that like swimming the length of the tank.
 
I would remove the crayfish as soon as humanly possible, I am surprised they haven't already been attacking the peaceful innocently bumbling corys. At a minimum I would have the panda cory numbers at 6, in a corydoras world its the more the merrier. On another note regarding the corys are they on a gravel or sand substrate? Corys do best on sand and then you can what them behaving nice and naturally snuffling through the sand to dig out tid bits.
 
Endlers are pretty (well the males are), but it is hard to find pure endlers and there is massive on going debate about how "pure" endlers in aquariums are. If they have been with guppies then they will have cross bred resulting in offspring that are endler/ guppy hybrids, these like most hybrids are a bigger fish. Maybe not bigger than a guppy but certainly bigger than an Endler.
 
If you have a small species of tetra and even after increasing there numbers are still wishing for an other active peaceful fish then I could only recommend Blue Eyes. Spotted, are one of the more common species overseas I think which are smaller than the also available Pacific Blue Eye. Threadfin Rainbows are also another amazing fish and for both species I never tire of watching the males display and ritual spare with each other.

 

[clovis]

So, the results are conflicted:
I went to the LFS and explained that I had read on the tinterweb that CPOs and fish did not mix.  The fellow who sold them to me did agree to a limit, he said the fears of the crayfish damaging the fish was in fact founded, he did say it still was possible to keep the two as long as the CPOs were well fed (comparing it to lions in the savahna), and told me very genuinely that if I wanted to bring them back in, there was absolutely no problem (not in that way wherein the person tells you that it's not a problem, but they really communicate to you that  that it IS a problem).  When I brought the two CPOs he took them very graciously and asked me what I wanted.  I swapped them for 5 red cherry shrimp.  Which meant that I owed them 1 euro 50 in the swap.  He waved it off.  Everything was very amicable.
I did however notice that when a couple came in to make purchases for a new tank, the notion of cycling only mildly came up.  The fellow said, 'let the tank run empty for two to three weeks, bring the water in and we'll test it, and then you are good to go'.  I suppose if they tell the truth and nothing but, no one would ever start an aquarium.  Maybe, I'm wrong but I guess few LFS s talk you through the whole cycling thing.
At the end of the day, I think I will continue going to the LFS, as it is very friendly, small enough that when you are just looking at the fish, you can also hear all the conversations about keeping fish, which for a newbie like me is very helpful (with I'm sure some very bad info thrown into the mix once in a while).  Though I won't hesitate to go to the big box store every now and when and hear what their advice is all about (as I said, clearly some of the salespeople are true fanatics, and some are just getting a paycheck).
I do very much like the endler suggestion.
Now for my stupid question, could I get a pair (or three) female bettas?  (prefer the endler solution, just wanting to know if this would be kosher.  After all, my son has some say in the final decision)
cheers all, and thanks for the info

 

[Baccus]

Female bettas generally do best with more than three in their group. Simply because they will form a hierarchy and with more options available the less likely of one fish being bullied constantly by two more dominate ones. I am guessing that the female bettas you where looking at would be the common betta and not some of the more more elaborately finned varieties. Even though the females generally will have small fins and be more mobile than males, the fact remains that tetras can be quite nippy fish. Also at feeding time the tetras will go into a feeding frenzy (reminding my of mini pirahanas with their quick darts to the food), the bettas may miss out on food because they are often more leisurely in their approach to food.

 

[the_lock_man]

What sort of tetra do you have? Some tetras can get quite large while others like cardinals will stay smaller. Just asking because depending on what type of tetra depends on how many more to add to your current school/ shoal.

 
The OP attached a photo of the tank in the first post, they are neons

 

[eduller]

The true dwarf mexican crayfish *usually* do perfectly fine with fish.

 

[Byron]

To the OP (clovis)...you are fast learning not to accept "advice" from stores but to do your own research.  I have been in this hobby more than 25 years, and I long ago learned the maxim that I will never buy any fish about which I have not researched everything.  Store staff cannot know about all the thousands of fish species.  And as for taking risks and "trying" this or that...it is always safer to assume the probable rather than try something and find out the worst.  Betta are not fish I would add to your tank, ever.  Nor the crayfish.
 
Now to adding fish.  You have a 20 gallon tank, but from the photo it is a long (30 inch length) and not a high, so you are in luck as you can add more fish more safely depending upon the species.  The first thing I would do is increase the corys; you have four Corydoras panda, so get another three.  Corys are highly social fish, and in my experience this is one of the most social species of them all.  They will be happier, and this will give your son more enjoyment watching them frolicking about in the filter return.
 
I would also increase the neons, from five to eight or nine.  These too will be better for this.  And before I leave the existing fish and suggest others, I will mention temperature.  Both the corys and the neons will be healthier in slightly cooler water than the "normal" tropical temperature.  If you keep the tank around 75/76F (24 c) they will be at their best.  Betta would not, another reason to forget them.  So in considering another fish, keep in mind the temperature.  I would say you have room (after the above additions) for something, but I will leave it to you, as it is your aquarium and not mine, though I will comment if I see any issues along the way.
 
Byron.