Struggling to get tank right

[gorillabay]

I am new to the forum and not sure if I'm in the right department. Even though this is not my first tank I often still feel like a beginner b/c I'm always learning something new.

Specs:
55 G, started up Dec. 2017
5 fish: 1 neon dwarf gourami, 1 emerald cory, 1 zebra danio, 2 platies
Temp: 76 degrees
Live plants: none
Filter: HO, Top Fin Slipstream 75; also a Whisper meant for a 20G (just added as extra support)
Substrate: Gravel

I started with 1 platy which was a transfer from my 20G (tank no longer used), then added, between Dec. and early Feb., 3 danios, 2 platies, 2 cories, 1 pleco, and the gourami. So 2 danios, 1 platy, 1 cory, and the pleco all did not make it.

For the first 2 months I was bringing my H2O into Petco for the strip tests. The guy who was helping me through the process kept saying the water was good and couldn't figure out the reason for the deaths. I found through research that the strip tests were unreliable so I got an API Master Test Kit in mid-February.

My ammonia kept coming in high, as high as 0.5 ppm. My pH was high as well, 7.5 or higher. My nitrites and nitrates have always been good.

I performed several water changes of about 15-20 per cent from late January through the present.

The latest tweak was trying out R/O water via a local fish store. Yesterday I performed about a 25% water change using this R/O water for the first time. Tonight I tested the H2O pH and ammonia and got readings of 6.0 and between 0.25 ppm and 0.5 ppm, respectively. A test performed a few days earlier had readings of 7.5 and 0.5, respectively. Just prior to getting the R/O, I also tested my tap water and pH was 8.0 or higher and ammonia was 1.0. I had never thought tap water could be so damaging so this was a light bulb moment and that's what nudged me towards the R/O water.

Also, I hadn't ever been good at gravel vacuuming but I received a tutorial and looked at online videos and in this last water change was significantly more efficient.

The fish store told me that R/O, better gravel vacuuming, and a better filter (thus my idea to add on the old filter as extra) would all help but not cure the problem; that feeding less is the key (he said 75% of the problems he sees in fish tanks is due to overfeeding or food issues). I had been feeding usually once a day, with 3 rounds of pinches per day. He suggested doing just one round.

None of the fish have any outward signs of disease or illness. The only outlier is the red wag platy who seems to often have a long string of poop hanging out.

I don't know what to make of the pH swing (I wanted it lower but not that low!). And I don't know how much time it might take for things to get in line, if they ever will. I am feeling very discouraged. I check the tank every time I wake up and go to bed, hoping there's not another causality. Help please.

 

[Colin_T]

Easy bit first, the platy probably has worms that are causing the stringy white poop. Don't bother treating until you stabilise the tank. When you do treat the platy just use a deworming product from the petshop and treat all the fish you have in every tank.

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R/O (reverse osmosis) water is water that has been forced through membranes that remove minerals and fine particles, and then it is usually put through carbon to remove chemicals. It should theoretically have no minerals and have a pH of 7.0. By mixing R/O water with mains water you will reduce the overall mineral content and pH of the tank water.

The ammonia reading in the water being tested could be from the mains water if you have chloramine in the water supply. Or it could be from dirty phials/ containers used for testing or transporting the water. Or it could be residual ammonia from the fish being fed before the water sample was taken. And faulty test kits are the another cause.

Check the aquarium water in the morning before you feed the fish and then 30 minutes and 1 hour after feeding the fish. Write the results down and see if there is any reading. Healthy well established filters that are suitably sized for the volume of water, should remove all ammonia within 15-30 minutes of the fish being fed. And it should certainly be gone within 1 hour of the fish being fed.

If there is no ammonia before feeding, but there is an ammonia reading 1 hour after feeding, then the filters are not working properly. If this happens then test the ammonia levels every 30-60 minutes and see how long it takes to remove all the ammonia from the water. You will need to improve filtration if it takes more than 2 hours. Alternatively there might be uneaten food in the tank that needs removing. In which case you will need to adjust your feeding habits.

You can test your tap water for chloramine too. Test a sample of tapwater for ammonia. There should be none. Add a couple of drops of dechlorinator to some tapwater, swirl around for a minute and then test that sample for ammonia. Theoretically if you have chloramine, the dechlorinator will break the ammonia/ chlorine bond and you will get an ammonia reading.

Some dechlorinators bind the free ammonia to prevent it harming the fish, and this can prevent the filter bacteria utilising it, and when you test the water you get an ammonia reading.

If you have ammonia in the water and the pH is above 7.0, the fish are being damaged by the ammonia. The higher the pH, the more toxic ammonia becomes.

 

[gorillabay]

Thank you so much for your reply. I will try your suggestions as soon as I can. Also I am going to test the R/O water. What could make the pH have such a swing? 7.5 to 6.0...if R/O is 7.0 I don't see how it could go all the way down to 6.0.

The tap water had an ammonia of 1.0 ppm. Since my readings have been below that, it gives me some hope - though still toxic levels (0.25-0.5) and that's bad, the fact that it's lower than when it was put in makes me think at least something is working b/c if it wasn't it would be 1.0 or higher.

 

[Colin_T]

The only reasons I could think of as to why the pH dropped was the R/O water was not R/O or had been adjusted to have a much lower pH, or the test was faulty, dirty phial maybe? Or the mains water had a lower pH than normal. But for the pH to drop from 7.5 to 6.0, one lot of water has to have been about 4.0 and that is almost hydrochloric acid.

Do you use a liquid pH test solution (Bromothymol Blue)?
Do you rinse the phials out with water to be tested before and after doing tests? if not, then it's a good idea to rinse the phial out a few times with water to be tested. Then rinse the test phial out with clean water after the test is done. This removes any residue from dirt or previous tests that can give a false reading.

If the tap water has 1.0 ammonia and the tank is less, then the filter is doing its job, at least to some degree.

Check the directions on the test kit and see if you get the same results looking down the test phial when it is sitting on the colour chart. Sometimes you get slightly different colour if you look through the side compared to looking down from above. External light sources also vary the colour a bit.

 

[gorillabay]

The pH is back to 7.6. I read that pH can swing quite a bit based on different circumstances including time of day. Ammonia is down to 0.25. Fish stock still at 5. Tested the R/O water and got readings of 6.0 pH and ammonia 0.5. Tested the shower water (which is the water I was specifically using to fill the tank prior to getting the R/O), and pH was 6.0 as well, with ammonia at 1.0. As has remained the case, nitrites and nitrates are great.

Don't know what to make of things anymore. Differing opinions between forums, lfs's, general pet stores, others' experience, etc. I know everything you hear and read is against this, but I find it curious - At my work there is a 20G that no one does water changes with. The tank is either overstocked or close to it, and those fish keep right on chugging. I tested the water out of curiosity; the pH was 6.4, ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 160 (!). Logic dictates these fish should be dead or in danger of dying. I just don't get this hobby.

Unfortunately I left the testing kit at work so I can't perform the tests you suggested (today was my first opportunity to do so), but I will. And continue to research, I guess, though it's kind of driving me crazy. Thank you so much for your kind replies.

 

[seangee]

Try letting your tap water stand for 12-24 hours and then test for pH. It is quite common for it to change after it comes out of the tap but should be stable after 24 hours.

Is your shower fed by a tank in the loft / ceiling or directly from the mains? I wouldn't drink the water from my loft tank and would not use it in the aquarium. Don't know where you are but that is pretty common in the UK - so I only ever use cold water from the kitchen or garden tap. And if heating is required I use a heater.

FWIW the fish in the office will "appear" to be fine. Their lifespan will be significanlty reduced as exposure to high levels of nitrates damages the organs which will eventually fail. The fish may well survive those conditions for several years, but they certainly won't thrive in them.

 

[Byron]

No mention has been made in this thread of the GH (general or total hardness) and KH (carbonate hardness or Alkalinity) of your source water. You must know these before you start trying to sort out pH, as the three are related. I am assuming the GH and KH is low, but you need to confirm this. Check the data on your municipal water authority's web site, these numbers may be there, or contact them directly. We need to know the numbers and their unit of measurement as there are several and the numbers vary depending upon the unit.

When testing pH in tap water (only) you must ensure any CO2 is out-gased or the reading may be way off. Let a jar/glass of tap water sit 24 hours before testing. This is not needed with aquarium water.

Last comment on the work tank...you have no idea what state those fish may be in. You can keep any animal, including humans, in terrible circumstances and they may live through it, but at what cost?

 

[gorillabay]

Thanks for the follow-ups. I will need to research the info re: water source, GH, and KH. I thought R/O water has no ammonia in it, but I when I tested it I got an ammonia reading of 0.5 ppm. This is better than my previous source water but still even if I use this R/O (from the store I got it from anyway) then I'm still adding ammonia.

As for the workplace fish, I want to stipulate that I realize that just b/c they're alive and swimming does not mean they are healthy, I just find it curious how those fish seems so much hardier even though they are from a local chain store and the source water tests similar to mine.

 

[seangee]

Ammonia and nitrite are "instant" killers while nitrates will take their toll slowly, possibly even over years. The other rhing to remeber is that pH is a logarithmic scale. A swing from 7 to 6 is huge. 6 is 10 times as acidic as 7. Fish simply can't cope with such a big swing in a short time. The office tank has a stable pH because nobody is touching it.
Once you post the GH and KH numbers we can advise how to achieve a stable pH as well as what may be the best fish to keep.

 

[Colin_T]

Theoretically R/O water should not have any ammonia, nitrite or nitrate in it and it should have no hardness and a pH of 7.0. If there is ammonia in the R/O water, there is something wrong with the R/O unit.

Obviously your water source has ammonia in it. You need to test each tap in the house and see if the ammonia is in the hot water system or cold water or both. If it is only in the hot water, there is a contaminant in your hot water system that is causing it.
If you are using well water or rain water, and there is ammonia in both hot and cold taps, there is a contaminant in the well or rainwater tank.

If you are using mains water and there is ammonia in both the hot and cold water pipes, the ammonia is coming from the water supply company and you probably have chloramine in the water. However, chloramine usually makes the pH alkaline, not acidic.

Contact your water supply company and get them to send you a list of what is in your water, then post details here. If they claim nothing but chlorine and fluoride then I would look at getting them and or a government health department to come and test the water for everything. I would also look into finding a private company/ lab that can do their own water tests and give you their results.

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Get a few different brands of distilled water from the shop and chemist if they sell it (1 or 2 litre bottles), and check the ammonia and pH of that. Distilled water should be pure and have 0 ammonia and a pH of 7.0. If your test kit says distilled water has ammonia and an acid pH, the test kit is stuffed.

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As others have mentioned, get a bucket of tap water and let it stand for 24 hour. Aerate it if possible. Test the pH and ammonia when you first fill the bucket up and again 24 hours later. Write the results down each time so you can compare them.

Water that is in the pipes is under pressure and can have the dissolved gases forced out of it causing variations in the pH. Letting a bucket of water stand or aerate for 24 hours will let the water reabsorb gases from the atmosphere (oxygen, carbon dioxide & nitrogen) and you might see a pH change.

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Aquarium and pond water can vary in pH during the day and night. This is normally caused by plants using carbon dioxide (CO2) when it is light, and producing oxygen (O2), causing the pH to go up. At night when it is dark the plants use oxygen and release carbon dioxide causing the pH to drop. Carbon dioxide is acidic and drops the pH if there is no surface turbulence to help push it out of the water and let oxygen in. And the pH can drop if there is nothing in the water to buffer the CO2.

In an aquarium there is usually plenty of surface turbulence (unless it's a plant tank with added CO2) and theoretically the pH should not change during the day or night. If the tank has lots of surface turbulence and the pH is changing, you need to increase the general hardness (GH) and carbonate hardness (KH) of the water. R/O water should have no mineral content and this means there is nothing to stabilise the pH. So people using nothing but R/O water should buffer the water with mineral salts to stabilise the pH.

A "Rift Lake" water conditioner (in powder form) is used by people with African Rift Lake cihlids and is designed to raise the hardness of the water with mineral salts. It can be used to add minerals to R/O water and help stabilise the pH. Depending on the fish being kept, you can use rift lake water conditioner at about 1/4 to 1/2 strength and it will raise the GH, KH & pH and stop pH fluctuations.

You should also check the hardness of your tap water. You might have soft water with little to no mineral content in it. If this is the case it would explain the low pH and you will need to buffer the water in the same way you do for R/O water, (namely rift lake water conditioner).

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Perhaps you could do 25% water changes on your work tank during lunch break and slowly dilute the nutrients in it

 

[gorillabay]

A few updates...so the tank population is up to 9 now. The ammonia is somewhere in the neighborhood of 0 to 0.12. It's really hard for me to distinguish the colors on the chart. The pH is at 7.6 and has been for the last 10-14 days. I found a water quality report for my home. Hardness is 1-3 gpg and 9-58 ppm. Ph is 8.8-9.4. Chloride is 4-9. Chloramine is <0.4. Alkalinity-carbonate is 2-3.

I added a canister filter (Cascade 1000) while keeping the existing filters in place. I tried a new R/O water; when I tested that the ammonia appeared the same as the tank's - which is to say, better than what the R/O from the previous LFS tested at twice. It's pH is 6.8.

The algae has improved and so has the platies' condition (got better on its own). Also I've added some Tetra SafeStart a couple of times since the last post.

While I'm feeling more optimistic, the gourami didn't make it. A power outage may or may not have contributed to that (I last saw the fish before the outage, was out of town when the outage happened). I now have 3 tetras, 3 platies, 2 cories, and 1 danio. I don't know if LFS fish are generally better than chain pet store fish, but so far the LFS fish are 5-0 and chain stores are 4-7.

As far as pH goes, I've looked into adding driftwood or other natural solutions and will probably do that soon.

The only thing that makes me feel better is looking on these forums and reading how others have similar problems and want to give up. Dark, I know. I am enjoying looking at my tank and feeding them and such, and trying to remain optimistic.

Note - this photo is from before installation of the canister...there's no real differences in appearances except the water is clearer.

 

[Colin_T]

how much gravel do you have in that tank? it looks like about 4 inches and that is way too much unless you have live plants or an undergravel filter.

I would remove at least 1/2 to 2/3s of the gravel. Wash it out, let it dry and pack it away or use it in another tank, but you don't need that much.

 

[Byron]

The pH is at 7.6 and has been for the last 10-14 days. I found a water quality report for my home. Hardness is 1-3 gpg and 9-58 ppm. Ph is 8.8-9.4. Chloride is 4-9. Chloramine is <0.4. Alkalinity-carbonate is 2-3.

Livebearers (platies mentioned) will not last long in this soft water. If you can re-home them you should. The soft water species will be fine.

They may be adding something to raise the pH, which is why it lowers so much in the aquarium. Not a problem for soft water species.

 

[gorillabay]

I have about 4 inches of gravel. Why is that so critical?
What kind of numbers would qualify as "hard water"?
Would driftwood/peat moss etc. be a worthy investment to try and lower my pH?
R/O water (or in my case Glacier Water) would be "soft", correct?

 

[Colin_T]

R/O water should have no minerals and should have a pH of 7.0 and a hardness of 0.

driftwood, etc will not drop the pH if you have a lot of minerals in the water, because the minerals buffer the pH.

soft water is under 100ppm. medium hardness water is 100-300ppm. hard water is generally 300ppm+.

The more gravel you have in the tank, the less water. Unless you have live plants or an undergravel filter, you are sacrificing water volume for gravel.