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Stop me!!

Discussion in 'Coldwater Fish and Ponds' started by BeckyCats, Feb 19, 2017.

  1. BeckyCats

    BeckyCats Member

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    I saw 2 adorable goldfish (oranda, I think?) in the LFS. I want them soooo much but I think it makes more sense to have another tropical tank since my bronze cories keep making more bronze cories and I need another tank to put them in. But, I really really really like these 2.
    Cons to getting the goldfish:
    1. I don't know if they can be in a tank with HOB filters and I have no experience with canisters.
    2. Hubs is restricting me to a "small" tank, so I'll probably end up with a 38 gallon tank. Is that even big enough? I'd love to have a black moore too, I'm sure 3 would be pushing it for sure.
    3. I wouldn't be able to put the extra cories in it.
    4. Those particular fish are way more expensive than the others because they are bigger. ($32 compared to $5 - $7 for the smaller ones).

    Pros to getting the goldfish:
    1. The kids love them
    2. I love them
    3. Look at those faces...
    IMG_20170219_222837.jpg

    What would you do?
     
  2. thrujenseyes

    thrujenseyes Member

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    my first instinct is to say NO Way! Do another tropical tank! Sooooo many more choices in fish and plants and all sorts of fun stuff!!!
    Buuuuuuuut....
    OMG those faces :wub:
    so, sorry...not much help
     
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  3. BeckyCats

    BeckyCats Member

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    Ha ha!! I'm the WORST at decisions! The kids and I have already named the one with the yellow head "Sunny" because, well, obviously because she/he looks like it has a sun for a head. I might just get them (if they're still there) and then tell my husband that I now NEED another tropical tank for the extra cories. MWAH HAH HAH!!!! Oh, wait, was that evil laugh out loud? Sorry. ;)
     
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  4. RRaquariums

    RRaquariums Chatroom Moderator
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    Well I'm not gonna claim to be a goldfish expert since I've only ever kept a pair that I had to take from my mothers tank as they outgrew it pretty fast. That being said I'll give it my best shot at stopping you lol.

    So my first point would be that these fish are goldfish even though they are cute and small now the orandas get to be between 7-8 inches when fully grown and up to 12 inches in ponds and very large clean tanks in some cases. The biggest one on record grew to be 15 inches. So a 38 gallon tank won't be a forever home for these guys/girls they will need a 75 gallon tank before very long and as adults if you wanted to keep a group which is best they would need a 125 gallon at least that's what I'd want them in.

    Another thing to keep in mind are goldfish simply by size they are a fairly dirty fish which means to keep health and growth up vigorously maintained water is key which means big filters or a sump would be even better and frequently done water changes that are large.

    Last two things to keep in mind is that these fish can live up to 20 years with 10-15 being very common in the home aquarium so that's a really long commitment to those fish when you consider water changes and food and cost of running and buying a large tank its a very big thing to consider it's like raising a child lol.
    It's hard to imagine those cute little 2-3 inch orandas as aquarium Giants but in no time at all they will start growing in leaps and bounds so it's best to have larger aquariums ready or start out in one.

    Now if you can see yourself doing all this and making a commitment to care for these cool fish then by all means I'd encourage you to go for it and you will have amazing fish that will be beautiful members of the family for many years.
     
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  5. BeckyCats

    BeckyCats Member

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    Thank you for trying to talk me down! LOL!

    I read that they can live for up to 20 years and that did amaze me. That's longer than most dogs and cats! I don't know how old they are now, but if they live for 20 years, I'll be 64 when they pass. That is a LONG time to have a pet, but I am at a point in my life where I am the most stable I have ever been (knock on wood!). Regarding the tank size, if they outgrow this tank, then I'll HAVE to get a bigger tank for them - MWAH HAH HAH!!! Oops. Sorry. There's that evil laugh again. I will be getting a big tank in the basement (hopefully within a year), so that is one possibility. I also secretly have my sights set on a spot in the dining room that could easily house a 75 gallon and a few adorable goldfish. But even if not in the dining room, in the basement would work. I've already explained to my husband that a person NEEDS more than just a tank or two because you can't keep different types of fish together, yet you want to keep more than one type. He just doesn't want them all in the upstairs since they take up so much room. Once we have faucets installed in the basement, then I'm free to put in anything I want down there.

    Regarding filtration, I am afraid of canister filters. I tried to set up one up once but had to return it because there were pieces missing, but even before the pieces were missing, it was really complicated with a bunch of hoses that had to be cut to size and everything. Also, it looked like it was going to be a major project to clean them. HOB filters are simple, simple, simple. I have to read up more to see if goldfish can be kept properly with HOB filters. I was imagining 2 filters to handle the waste. If the water flow is too much, I can baffle one or both. I'll have to see how it goes.
    I just love Sunny's little sunny face! And the bronze one is adorable too. :wub:
     
  6. Byron

    Byron Member

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    Well, I think you are going down the wrong road here. RRAquariums covered the issues, but there is another consideration, regarding the future tank.

    I learned a precept some years back which I never ignore...and that is, never acquire any fish for which you do not now (at the time of acquisition) have an aquarium running that will properly house the fish at maturity. Plans to buy another tank in a year may never come to fruition, for any number of reasons. Fish grow continually, and need adequate space (for both physical space and water quality) along the way or they will suffer internal issues that cannot be reversed. It really is not kind to the fish to do otherwise.

    Byron.
     
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  7. BeckyCats

    BeckyCats Member

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    Is 38 gallons too small for 2? I've read that it is an appropriate size for 2, although too small for 3. There is so much conflicting information about goldfish on the internet right now. From various sources, I've read that this type grows anywhere from 6 - 12 inches, that they should be kept without heaters and that they cannot be kept without heaters, that the minimum size is anything from 10 gallons to 75 gallons. If a 38 is too small, then how about a 55 gallon? Also, do you know how quickly they grow? That is another thing that I read widely conflicting information about.
     
  8. thrujenseyes

    thrujenseyes Member

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    Everyone has great advice and it it were me they'd certainly have talked me out of it....although I pretty much know that I'd be incapable of ever giving them what they need (which is basically all of my time and money...which i'm lacking in both). Plus I'm not sure I could survive those massive w/c once or twice a week on a 75 gallon. Holy Moly! I follow a few people on Instagram that keep Goldies and holy cow...its pretty much their full time job. And man...they're like their children. One person has even made a floating device type life jacket for one that had gotten sick with swim bladder issues. The contraption keeps it upright but can only be worn a few hours a day as to not harm the fish's scales and such. OMG...it's utterly insane. And I'd be doing the exact same thing if I had that fish....and I'm fairly certain you would too.
    A fish with a face like that is basically a water dog that you want to cuddle and love and will be absurdly mortified and broken if it gets sick. I know I can't deal with that! I'm crazy enough over my dogs.

    That being said...
    if anyone can do it....I think you can.

    So...again, I know I'm not helping but if it were me...I'd pass.
     
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  9. BeckyCats

    BeckyCats Member

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    OMG, a tiny life jacket... I'm dying.
    Yes, I agree, the face suggests a cute little puppy. About the only thing that is consistent about goldfish from website to website is that they have great personalities. So, yeah, I could see myself trying to suit up a little fish jacket. I'm going to have to check out Instagram for goldfish keepers. That sounds really interesting.

    I passed up discus because of the water changes. Again, there is disagreement about how often the water should be changed on the tanks, but a lot of people say daily and that is just way too often. Once a week is fine. Daily is over the top.

    It is frustrating how certain fish have such different information about them on the internet. Oscars are another fish that people have differing opinions regarding tank size, tank mates, etc.

    I still haven't made up my mind. I didn't actually buy the 38 gallon yet because I guess I'm still hoping for a bigger one. The pinned post on this site says that 150 liters (~39 gallons) is the minimum for 2 goldfish. That's what I was mostly going on regarding size. If 55 gallons would be better, then I could probably go ahead and do it. I mean, my husband wouldn't be mega-thrilled, but he knows me and he would probably be glad I didn't come home with a 200 gallon tank. Or backyard chickens. Or goats. Both of which are adorable, by the way.
     
  10. RRaquariums

    RRaquariums Chatroom Moderator
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    Well here's the thing with gold fish and even discus. There are hundreds of sites devoted to there care and requirements and let's face it not every site is written by an expert in the field of that fish most are simply a regurgitation of what someone else read on another site and in turn that person read it somewhere else so you get a long line of misinformation that then gets taken as fact because it's been the method since time began to keep them that way so it's ok. Another thing to consider is many of these sites were written years ago and we are learning new things about fish everyday so when I was doing reef aquarium research and really any fish research I had a hard rule of if the information was more then a year old I took it with a grain of salt and considered it as questionable. Now that being said the more reading the better as you get useful tidbits everywhere just use common sense when delving into the fish care sites. Obviously with simple reasoning we can both agree that a 8+ inch fish isn't suited for aquariums that are 10 gallons the same reasoning tells us that unlike most torpedo shapped gold fish orandas grow in a roughly football shape this means they will need more space to turn around then a standard goldfish so what's really important here with orandas and really any fish is how wide the tank is from front to back the wider the tank the better it is. Now to answer your question no honestly I don't think a 38 gallon is going to be good for more then maybe a couple of months assuming these fish are 2-3 inches. You asked how fast they grow? That's a tough one to answer and since there really isn't much research on aquarium fish growth I really don't have an answer for you however I can tell you why a large tank to start off with is certainly the best choice. When you start a fish off in a large aquarium especially a fish that gets very big two things happen one obviously the waist from the fish takes way longer to affect the water quality this not only gives you some fudge room in case you miss a water change or can't make one happen exactly on time and two it provides them with pristine water conditions which will assure the best growth and health of the fish. Something I see overlooked a lot in this hobby is the idea that a fish can bounce back from improper care now while it's true you can take a sickly fish and heal them and get them back to being ok but just like with humans being in those poor conditions affects the internal organs of the fish as well as many other parts so what you end up with is a fish that probably will never reach its full potential and can even have a much shorter life span. Imagine for a moment a human child that grows up in the inner city next to a factory that burns coal and puts off toxic smoke that child will probably develop weak lungs and athmsa along with other physical defects that are a direct result of that now you could take that child into the country and certainly with the help of medicine get them back to somewhat normal but the damage to the lungs is not reverseable and they will have to deal with that for there lives. It's the same with fish they get irreversible damage done to them when left in poor conditions and to small of areas. Since your fish can't pop out of the water and go dude come on we need a few extra feet here you really won't notice or even be able to tell when that damage is being done from lack of space so the easiest way by far to ensure not having this problem is starting out with a large enough tank that they can comfortably live out there life in it if you choose to let them stay there.

    Now let's talk about water changes since this is another one that people often misunderstand. In the wild fish for the most part are getting fresh water every second of every day from the time they hatch until they take there last breath there water is perfect for them or as close to it as possible. This doesn't mean fish need 100% perfect water every second but what it does mean is to reach there full potential and for them to grow as fast as possible the closer to that 100% perfect you get the faster they will grow and they are more likely to reach there potential size. This is often why you see people breeding gold fish or discus doing 75-100% water changes each day because they are trying to produce a product and the healthier and faster it grows the better price they can get and the less time to market. That being said let's face it most of us aren't commercial breeders or really capable of giving any larger fish its perfect conditions to get it to reach what it would in the wild and that's ok not every fish kept needs a 1000 gallon pond with daily water changes and the best organic food. They can live a happy life in much less but it's still important to give them enough space to grow and clean enough water that it's not forcing them to live in there own waist gasping for every breath.

    So all of this and I still haven't answered the simple questions you asked of what size tank, what kind of filter and what would water changes look like.

    Let's start with tank size.
    75 gallons would be my minimum for 2-3 orandas.

    Hang on back filters can be used however they can get pricy for large ones and really even the big ones for there price aren't going to give you the best bang for your buck filter wise. I strongly suggest you google above tank sumps as well look up on YouTube the king of diy his channel has all kinds of helpful vids on building above tank sumps and cheap filters for large tanks. Diy filters are the way to go they will cost you one tenth the price of a comparable store bought filter and often are much easier to maintain and use.

    Water changes are very easy if you take the time to set up a tank for it. If you have a place close to a sink that is perfect but if you don't it's still doable. My method for a water change on large tanks is this.
    At most hardware stores they sell cheap pumps called sump pumps or drain pumps for a large one that does 900-1200 gph here I pay about 17$ they normaly come with an addaptor that fits right onto a garden hose. Stick the pump in the tank, stick the garden hose end in the sink or if it's summer time I take it right outside and water garden plants with that awesome nutrient rich fish water. Turn it on then simply watch it until it pumps out as much water as you want to change. No lifting no spills it's easy if done right.

    Now then filling back up.
    At most stores they sell large plastic trash cans the best for this are Brute brand as they are built tough and are aquarium safe for sure. On water change day in the morning I set the empty trash can by a sink and fill it up to my desired water change amount. I then treat the water for chlorine and put the sump pump in it to get that mixed in i also stick a heater in it to get it up to the same temp as the tank since I normaly do my water changes in the evening I let the water sit for the day and make sure it's up to temp and dechlorinated. After emptying the tank as described above I simply reverse the set up with the pump now in the trash can and the end of the hose in the tank and turn it on. Water change done on a large tank in less then and an hour total time.

    For a 75 gallon tank with three orandas in it I'd do a 50-60% water change once a week. When they get fully grown that number might be higher.

    I'm sure I've missed some things that will come to me later but this is as detailed as I can think of right now lol.
     
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  11. Byron

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    I agree with all that RR posted, except for the method of water changes, and I don't disagree, I just find it easier to use a Python attached to the faucet. Provided you do not have to specially treat/adjust the source water, this works fine. Conditioner is added to the tank as it begins to fill.

    Byron.
     
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  12. RRaquariums

    RRaquariums Chatroom Moderator
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    I dislike adding the treatment directly to the tank as you have to treat the full tank instead of just the water added which with a big tank can get costly. If your off a well and don't need to treat the water then putting it into the a container Is still how I like to do it simply because I can get it up to exact temp before adding since if you do 50-60% water changes it's best to be spot on with temp so you don't shock the fish. If your a lucky lucky person your well is perfect water and perfect temp but that's like the holy grail of fish keeping lol.
     
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  13. BeckyCats

    BeckyCats Member

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    Wow! What a considerate, considered response. Thank you so much! I totally get what you are saying about the water quality. I test my tanks weekly before I do the water changes to make sure things are under control. So far, testing has shown clean water, so I haven't had to do more than weekly changes. I use a Python hose for draining and refilling but I like your idea of draining into the garden. I'm going to look into that.

    I also get what you are saying about the quality of life. It is similar to how I want to adopt every cat in need, but I have young children. Many cats can't handle the energy and noise level of children, so if I got a cat who was frightened by that, then I wouldn't be providing the best home for it despite my good intentions.

    So, I was at the store tonight, ready to get the 38 gallon tank when my husband called me and said to just get whatever size tank I want!! I left with nothing because that changes everything. Now I can get a 75 gallon, but I would need a bigger stand than what I have, so I have to think this through. Also, I need to think about the noise of the filters in the living room.

    My mind is spinning with possibilities but I need to go to bed. Not sure I'll sleep much though. I'm too excited about getting a bigger tank!! Yay, hubby!!!! :yahoo:
     
  14. Byron

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    This is one of those myths in the hobby; not sure where it started but I suspect the conditioner manufacturers. After all, if they can convince us to use double the conditioner needed, they will sell twice as much. There is certainly no other reason for using more than what is needed to dechlorinate/treat the volume of water being added. The conditioners are extremely concentrated. You also do not want more additives getting into the fish than necessary; "safe" is a relative term.

    As an example, my 90g tank which holds around 70 gallons due to displacement of substrate, wood and plants [I did work this out once], gets a 60% change every week. I switch the valve at the faucet to begin refilling, and when I get back to the fishroom I add enough conditioner for 40 gallons. I've been doing this in all 8 tanks for 20 years. Think of all the conditioner/money that's saved.

    I agree that one can shock fish with too cold water. I use the hot and cold taps to get the temp just a tad under the tank temperature and it ends up about 1 or at most 2 degrees cooler. Considering the level of spawning I notice the day following the water changes, this seems to work well to stimulate the fish. The only tank I don't do this is the Chocolate Gourami, which I fill at or just a tad above the same temperature.
     
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  15. thrujenseyes

    thrujenseyes Member

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    uh oh! haha

    Just to add to confusion....look into oscars too.
    Man do they have personality! I had one for about 8 years (years ago) that lived with a Jack Dempsy. The oscar was like a dog. Fun fish. He'd get so excited to see me and get fed that he jumped out of the tank numerous times. Had to be veeeerrryyy careful opening the lid on that tank!

    If you're on Instagram look into Goldfish keepers.
    A great one is miss.fancygoldfish
    and google einstein the disabled goldfish (lifejacket)
     
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