Let me ask this, is what i done yesterday with the wcs to get my ammonia down to what is now approx 2ppm not like starting over? I mean it has the ammonia still in there and now at the reccomened level and im not adding anymore ammonia to make it go back up. my Ph is 7.6 and my temp is 84° So why now would it not do anything? If it doesn't im tired of fooling with a fishless cycle! I mean i want to do it right but good grief at the pain a fishless cycle is. And yes i know part of that wwas my fault but who doesn't make mistakes?
Still Having Trouble With Fishless Cycle!
- Thread starter bsud
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bsud said:
Personally i'd like to resett every back to zero and start again, but i understand your point.
You can leave it at where it is now if you like, and see what happens, wait a week or two and see if your ammonia does start to drop if any bacteria has survived due to the high amount of ammonia that was in there previously.
But, be prepared for nothing to happen for a while.
bsud said:
Fishless cycling is far easier than fish in cycle, it really is.
I would urge you to persevere with this and you will get back on the right tracks again at a some point.
Mistakes are certainly made in this hobby for sure, just be thankful you have not lost any expensive stocking or they suffering due to mistakes.
The best thing you can do is learn from all this and i'l bet you in future you'll be saying oh why on earth did i do this or that, fishless cycle may seem complicated at first but once you grasp the basics of how exactly the process works, its actually pretty simple.
I appreciate the help. Also will the 2ppm ammonia thats still there now not cause new bacteria to grow? If not the best thing to do is start completely over. But ive got to find a way to get all my water out since i do not have any kind of pump right now.Ch4rlie said:
Bacteria does not simply appear just because there is ammonia in the tank.
Overdosing on ammonia can actually stall the cycle at best or kill your bacteria, hence why there has been precious little movement in ammonia levels.
The bacterias has to be in existence in the tank in the first place to be able to grow to a suitable colony size to be able to process 3ppm of ammonia to nitrite then to nitrate which we remove with water changes and plants consume some nitrate too.
Just get as much water out as you can with a gravel vac, don't worry if you cannot get every single last drop, just as much as you can. I've done this in the past without the need for any form of pump at all. Not forgetting to add de-chlore to water when re-filling the tank.
Then you know you're starting from at near zero as you can, do not add any ammonia once you've re-filled the tank before testing the water parameters.
Once you have got the test results and noted this, add enough ammonia for the amount of water volume, meaning deduct about 10 - 12%of water volume due to decor, substrate and internal filter etc
Then wait, test every 2 or 3 days to see if any changes in ammonia levels, then follow the fishless cycle article that has been linked a couple of times.
Overdosing on ammonia can actually stall the cycle at best or kill your bacteria, hence why there has been precious little movement in ammonia levels.
The bacterias has to be in existence in the tank in the first place to be able to grow to a suitable colony size to be able to process 3ppm of ammonia to nitrite then to nitrate which we remove with water changes and plants consume some nitrate too.
Just get as much water out as you can with a gravel vac, don't worry if you cannot get every single last drop, just as much as you can. I've done this in the past without the need for any form of pump at all. Not forgetting to add de-chlore to water when re-filling the tank.
Then you know you're starting from at near zero as you can, do not add any ammonia once you've re-filled the tank before testing the water parameters.
Once you have got the test results and noted this, add enough ammonia for the amount of water volume, meaning deduct about 10 - 12%of water volume due to decor, substrate and internal filter etc
Then wait, test every 2 or 3 days to see if any changes in ammonia levels, then follow the fishless cycle article that has been linked a couple of times.
ok im little confused here, You saying that i have to use something else with the ammonia to start the bacteria? I was under the impression from the article you stated which ive read 100 times alreadyCh4rlie said:
That once ammonia was added that it would cteat bacteria without anything else.
bsud said:
You are still assuming that your API test kit is giving you an accurate and true value of your ammonia concentration. I've been trying to show you that this cannot possibly be the case, unless you added over 300 drops of ammonia to your tank to begin with, or unless something is producing large amounts of ammonia in your tank.
bsud said:
A fish-in cycle will not necessarily make problems magically go away. If you are having problems with a fishless cycle then it's better to iron them out without anything suffering the ill effects of a failed cycle in your tank.
Well what im trying to say now is that the safe start i added at the beginning of the cycle and two weeks ago when i done a water change is probably what shot the level to high since its in a ammonia solution to start with. Those were added without really any drop in ammonia from my previously 20drops of pure ammonia. This is probably where i made my big mistake. I should have never bought those and put them in unless my ammonia was 1ppm or less. So if i start over it will just be around 3ppm of ammonia drops and then just let it go through its thing?daizeUK said:
TwoTankAmin
Fish Connoisseur
1st a note for daize- your ammonia advice of using 1.15 ml of ammonia is a bit off the mark as you forgot to allow for the volume of the glass and the substrate and decor. Here in the states tank volume is calculated based on the outside dimensions of the glass. In bsud's case it is better to use 8.5 gals as the volume and not 10. Doing so results in just under 1 ml.
bsud- you are getting lot of conflicting advice and I see you making a number of mistakes.
Lets start with how cycling gets under way. When we add tap water to a tank, it contains some amount of bacteria in it. This will form the start of the of the process. In order for bacteria to multiply you must have at least one bacterium to start with. Actually, we start with some number more than just one. The problem with this is that no two taps will have the same amount of bacteria come out. Some water systems have more effective treatments that will lower the number of bacteria in the sytem and others have less vigorous controls so more nitrifiers are in the syste. On top of this the bacteria colonize private plumbing. Water in our pipes, especially in taps that do not get turned on often tend to house the bacteria.
The point is that there simply is no way to know how many vateria are available at the outset. Now if one were to try and cycle a tank using reverse osmosis or deionized water they might have a ton of prblems with having starter bacteria present. This accounts for a lot of the difference in the time it takes various people to get their tank cycled. When we add the ammonia, it is the starting bacteria we are feeding. And the fewer of these thee might be, the longer the cycle takes.
On top of this are further issues. Dechlorinators that contain ammonia detoxifiers will do two things: Throw off ammonia test results and slow or even stall a cycle. While such products may be useful where chloramines are found when there are fish present, they do not help with cycling. This is one reason why having to do many water changes during cycling can cause problems.
Perhaps the hardest part of fishless cycling is the doing nothing part. Most people over test and overthink things. Most people get flustered an the result of that often is that common sense goes out the window. We panic and intead of figuring out what might be going on, we act. You did that with Dafe Start as an example. This product will work, but only of you strictly to adhere to their directions over those in the cycling article.
Safe start will not work under certain conditions which existed in your tank. You need under 3 ppm of ammonia (they suggest between 1 and 2 ppm, you need not to start until 24 hours after adding a dechlor and you must not change water for the next week. You must not use any ammonia detoxifiers for sure. And that means prime and Amquel etc. must have reached the point of no longer being effective before you add SafeStart. It has some ammonia in the bottle and they state this will be neutralized when it should not. This is one reason I suggest Dr. tim;s product over Tetra's. I have used hise successfully a few times and never wanted to use the Tetra product. However, when used properly it should work, just not as well as the Dr. Tim's (note this is my personal opinion).
I concur with all the folks suggesting you do massive water changes to reset the tank and start over. I would also suggest you get a new ammonia kit just in case this is the problem. Finally, a fish in cycle is way more complicated than fishless plus mistake can kill or harm fish. You may be frustrated here, but you have not harmed any fish or yourself.
I will make one final suggestion. Pick one person you believe can help you getting your tank cycled and work with them one on one rather that in a thread like this one. That way you will listen to only one voice and do things one way. If you fail, then you know if you did as instructed that the instructions were at fault and not something you may have done wrong. I would suggest using the PM system for this. You can also report in this thread what you are doing for those interested in following it. But if others then post telling you not to do what you were told one on one or to do something you were not told to, you can just ignore them. This will keep you from getting confused. Think of this as one of the those :Too many cooks spoil the broth." situations.
bsud- you are getting lot of conflicting advice and I see you making a number of mistakes.
Lets start with how cycling gets under way. When we add tap water to a tank, it contains some amount of bacteria in it. This will form the start of the of the process. In order for bacteria to multiply you must have at least one bacterium to start with. Actually, we start with some number more than just one. The problem with this is that no two taps will have the same amount of bacteria come out. Some water systems have more effective treatments that will lower the number of bacteria in the sytem and others have less vigorous controls so more nitrifiers are in the syste. On top of this the bacteria colonize private plumbing. Water in our pipes, especially in taps that do not get turned on often tend to house the bacteria.
The point is that there simply is no way to know how many vateria are available at the outset. Now if one were to try and cycle a tank using reverse osmosis or deionized water they might have a ton of prblems with having starter bacteria present. This accounts for a lot of the difference in the time it takes various people to get their tank cycled. When we add the ammonia, it is the starting bacteria we are feeding. And the fewer of these thee might be, the longer the cycle takes.
On top of this are further issues. Dechlorinators that contain ammonia detoxifiers will do two things: Throw off ammonia test results and slow or even stall a cycle. While such products may be useful where chloramines are found when there are fish present, they do not help with cycling. This is one reason why having to do many water changes during cycling can cause problems.
Perhaps the hardest part of fishless cycling is the doing nothing part. Most people over test and overthink things. Most people get flustered an the result of that often is that common sense goes out the window. We panic and intead of figuring out what might be going on, we act. You did that with Dafe Start as an example. This product will work, but only of you strictly to adhere to their directions over those in the cycling article.
Safe start will not work under certain conditions which existed in your tank. You need under 3 ppm of ammonia (they suggest between 1 and 2 ppm, you need not to start until 24 hours after adding a dechlor and you must not change water for the next week. You must not use any ammonia detoxifiers for sure. And that means prime and Amquel etc. must have reached the point of no longer being effective before you add SafeStart. It has some ammonia in the bottle and they state this will be neutralized when it should not. This is one reason I suggest Dr. tim;s product over Tetra's. I have used hise successfully a few times and never wanted to use the Tetra product. However, when used properly it should work, just not as well as the Dr. Tim's (note this is my personal opinion).
I concur with all the folks suggesting you do massive water changes to reset the tank and start over. I would also suggest you get a new ammonia kit just in case this is the problem. Finally, a fish in cycle is way more complicated than fishless plus mistake can kill or harm fish. You may be frustrated here, but you have not harmed any fish or yourself.
I will make one final suggestion. Pick one person you believe can help you getting your tank cycled and work with them one on one rather that in a thread like this one. That way you will listen to only one voice and do things one way. If you fail, then you know if you did as instructed that the instructions were at fault and not something you may have done wrong. I would suggest using the PM system for this. You can also report in this thread what you are doing for those interested in following it. But if others then post telling you not to do what you were told one on one or to do something you were not told to, you can just ignore them. This will keep you from getting confused. Think of this as one of the those :Too many cooks spoil the broth." situations.
ok so maybe the mistake came from somewhere else who knows. All i know is i want my tank to cycle. So what should i do? Get as much water as i can out get ammonia to around 3ppm and let it go without adding anything else until ammonia drops then i know i have to dose again then?daizeUK said:
ok folks heres the deal I got a pump and done a 100% complete wc. I bought a new ammonia test kit in case my other was bad. I didn't use my prime i used my reg top fin dechlor 2 drops per every gal i put in per info on bottle. Then before anything was done i tested ammonia, ph, and high ph. Ammonia was .50ppm, ph was 7.6, high ph was 8.2 I then added 17 drops of ammonia (17 because my tank is about one inch low on water) That brought my ammonia to 2ppm I stopped there because im going by dr tims guide which suggest 2-3Pppm and no more than 3 (not using any his products). Ive added nothing else and it is now cycling. Are there anything im missing or is it good to go and sit back and wait on nitrites to rise and ammonia to drop? Also i started a log and i will record every reading. Im not gonna test everyday just as dr tim suggest.
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