Rehomimg My Severums To Get Back To Planted - What Should I Replace Th

[SouthernCross]

Hi everyone,

Much as I adore my Severums, they have completely destroyed all my plants, and I really used to love it when my tank was well planted. So I am rehoming them to my brother (he only has plastic plants!)

I am toying with what to replace them with. So far on my short list are Ellioti cichlids or fire mouths. Just thought I'd ask for some input on compatibility. Also thought about festivums but heard they sometimes eat plants too and might fight with angels?

It's an approx 450 litre tank and I run two fluval 305 canisters on it.

2x angels (not a pair, but get along)
2x blue acara (showing signs of pairing)
1x male krib
4 rams (who I hope to get them their own tank soon)
2 x rainbow sharks
4x clown loaches
3x.cories
8 x black skirt tetras
4x Odessa barbs
Kuhli loaches (no idea how many)

Main compatibility issues would be with acara and angels. Would fire mouths be too aggressive for this tank? I also love the colours of Elliott's - but I think both would be too much.

Looking forward to people's thoughts! Thank you

 

[thereverendturtle]

I would recommend cupid cichlids personally. Nice looking, not aggressive and will generally do well with the fish and plants.

 

[SouthernCross]

I have never seen them here in any of my local LFS here in Australia. They seem a little small though, I was looking for something at least acara sized, as my Severums were nice and big and commanded a lot f attention in the tank.

Thank you for your reply though. No one seems to be talking as much on the forums anymore

 

[SouthernCross]

Anyone else out there?!?!

 

[Wills]

Hi sorry I missed this.
 
Just trying to think of options for the feature fish but the other thing I would do is get some of your schools in order a little so before adding anymore I would get to this point
 
2x angels (
2x blue acara
1x male krib
2 x rainbow sharks  - is this really working? goes against a lot of what I would normally reccomend?
4x clown loaches
6x.cories
8 x black skirt tetras
6x Odessa barbs
Kuhli loaches (no idea how many) - just make sure you have a fair few it might help bring them out a little more
 
As for a feature fish how about a Rainbow Cichlid? A Sajica might work but I like your idea of the Firemouth or Ellioti as well
 
Wills

 

[DrRob]

Firemouth and ellioti I like the idea of, but I'm biased, wanna buy a few ellioti? (although I suspect they may not like the postage) They seem fairly sedate with plants but do dig a fair bit. To be honest my cories are more trouble for the plants.
 
Don't get firemouths and ellioti, they run the risk of hybridising in a tank, ellioti are, by reputation, more sedate and would probably suffer slightly less with jaw damage in any sparing.

 

[char la]

i wouldnt be too put off by the festives. they actually shoal with angelfish in the wild.

 

[SouthernCross]

Hi sorry I missed this.
 
Just trying to think of options for the feature fish but the other thing I would do is get some of your schools in order a little so before adding anymore I would get to this point
 
2x angels (
2x blue acara
1x male krib
2 x rainbow sharks  - is this really working? goes against a lot of what I would normally reccomend?
4x clown loaches
6x.cories
8 x black skirt tetras
6x Odessa barbs
Kuhli loaches (no idea how many) - just make sure you have a fair few it might help bring them out a little more
 
As for a feature fish how about a Rainbow Cichlid? A Sajica might work but I like your idea of the Firemouth or Ellioti as well

 
Wills

 
Sorry it has taken so long for me to reply!
 
The severums are safe and sound and happy in my brother's tank now, so now I can really get the ball rolling on choosing something to replace them.
 
First off I definitely agree with some our your suggestions, Wills, regarding my current stocking.
 
The rainbow sharks - oddly enough it is working. I was happy with my one black rainbow shark, but the other half saw a very large white one he liked one day and despite my reservations they would fight, I let him get it and generally these two fish just cruise around the tank and avoid each other. In fact, since adding the larger white one, the black one mellowed a lot (he used to chase the barbs and rams around) and now he does not. But I definitely do keep a close eye on those two, and I told the other half if they start fightng that one of them has to go. At the moment the black one is about 2/3 the size of the white one so will be interesting to see what happens if/when he catches up size wise. But tey have been co-existing peacefullly for about a year or so now.
 
The cories - I have been thinking about them for awhile. I did have four, until recently, but lost one (to old age I think) My  remaining three cories are all 8+ years old and have been with me a long time (since my first tank!). Over the last year or so SOMEONE has been taking chunks out of their dorsal and tail fins. I have never seen a fish do it (although I am obviously suspecting one of the cichlids), but I don't know who it is. And since something is giving them a hard time, I have been dubious about replacing them once they die off, given I also have the clown loaches keeping the bottom circulated/clean. They are bronze/albino cories. I have also thought maybe that if I do get more cories, that I might choose a more robust species, perhaps sterbai? That might stand up to the bigger fish a bit better. I would be very interested in your thoughts on this, on what type of cories do best with cichlids.
 
Odessa barbs - yes was also planning to do that. I had six originally, two died. Just havent replaced them yet as they don't appear often in the LFS. I have found in a group they play amongst themselves but sincce I've had four they go after my angels fins a little bit. So am definitely in agreeance with you there. I really wish I could get a shoal of a small, narrow fish like rummys or something but I know they are all going to end up acara lunch.
 
Kuhli's - There is at least five (the most I have seen at once recently) and potentially up to 7 or 8. I thought that would be ok.
 
So other recent changes are that we have acquired a convict in the last month. The other half wanted a pair, but having heard the horror stories of them breeding, I said flat out no to a pair. Are they really as bad as everyone says? So at the moment we have just the one very colourful female, and I am hoping she is not going to be a troublemaker, because she is beautiful.  I also got a female krib for my male, but she has a lot of growing to do before they attempt breeding, I think. if they do at all.
 
Still leaning toward firemouths, but that sajica/T-bar looks lovely! They look very similar in shape to severum -  they are not plant eaters too, are they??
My other question was any tips on choosing a firemouth pair? Are they like some cichlids in that if I watch a tank long enough I might see a bit of pairing behaviour in the LFS? I understand that juveniles are hard to differentiate based on colours/fins.

 

[SouthernCross]

Ok I've spent awhile on youtube and have also been looking at the Nicaragua cichlids - the females are stunning!
 
Also saw some vids of rainbow cichlids and now they have also taken my interest. They seem to be a much smaller fish though? And apparently they can live in harems, so i could potentially get a small group?
 
i think out of the firemouths and elliotis I tihnk firemouths would contast better colour wise with my blue acaras....
 
Sajicas - as I said they look similar in body to severums - do they have any of their plant eating tendancies?
 
Ok
 
Are there any glaringly obvious pros and cons for the following
Nicaragua cichlid
Rainbow cichlids
Sajicas
Firemouths
 
Its so hard to decide. I want them all!

 

[bricko]

Just to throw a curve ball in there what about a Festivum?
 
Not the most colourfull fish I grant you but when fully grown are indeed a lovely specimen.  Mine is 8 in long and does not trouble any of my plants, he does 'dash' at the denisoni barbs from time to time if they spend too much time in his corner or the tank but other than that a very peaceful large cichlid.  Got a juve blue acara in there also and the festivum does not bother him at all.

 

[Wills]

Hi wow great to see how far your plans have developed
 
Lets see if I can cover all of the above
 
Sharks - just keep an eye on it, you might find that as they grow they become more intolerant of each other.
 
Cories - fair enough I can see your predicament with them and serious kudos for keeping them alive Cories generally speaking live 8 - 15 years so your in the right ball park with them. Im in a similar situation with my Severum she is 8 and as the true Heros Severus her lifespan is 8-10 years so just fingers crossed she makes a ripe old age. As for good Cories to go with cichlids I would go for their larger relatives like Brochis or even larger like Porthole Catfish or even larger still with Hoplo Catfish.
 
Oddessa Barbs - If your thinking of swapping them there are a bunch of other options out there - if you want a long torpedo fish what about something like Hemiodus? They are a long thin Tetra and something that is on my wish list but only ever seen them once and they were diseased . But they are a great fish. Headstanders could be an option as well I have Annostomus Ternetzi which are great and no where near as violent as some other Annostomus species or you could go for the easier to find Marbled Headstanders? All worth a thought I think
 
The Convict - Wouldnt have been my first choice just because they can turn violent, with having a female as well they can start laying eggs by them selves and cause problems that way.... also having a female Con is a bit of an issue in a mixed tank as they will breed (or at least try to) with any kind of cichlid... and in particular the Sajica will 100% breed with them they are very closely related. They also dig quite a lot so not the best choice in a planted tank? Also with your Angels I dont think its the best choice here...
 
For the list of other ones you have seen.
 
Nicaraguans - I absolutely love them - my avatar pic is Elsie my old female She died in a fight 2 years ago when I added a new Severum still gutted about it as she was brilliant. But I dont think they are right for this tank. I have since tried 3 other Nics 2 females and a male and all of them have been absolute nightmares even when I tried adding them at about an inch long, the male lasted the longest but in the end I had to rehome them all... Like I say dont think they are right for this tank. (But they are beautiful)
 
Rainbow Cichlids - could be a great addition to the tank, a pair will do great but that would finish you off cichlid wise. They are really peacful almost timid cichlids, could get picked on by the other fish but will depend on the personality and hierachy of the tank.
 
Sajicas - Could work - but just a lone male so long as you rehome the Convict, dont get a pair, they are one of the most vicious cichlids when spawning like comparable to some of the much much larger cichlids when defending fry...
 
Firemouths, I think could work but not 100% they would be my first choice in this tank. Im a big believer that where possible split Central Americans and South Americans as they can cause all kinds of problems - I was warned a few times by people I hugely respect in the hobby and tried it as it can sometimes worked, but never again.... However Blue Acaras and Firemouths are kept successfully in tons and tons of tank so you could try it. With the Firemouth vs Ellioti - see if you can find some Ellioti in the shop just for comparison as for me they are more colourful - there is a member on here called Liam and he has some numbers after his name in his user name but I cant remember them.... sorry Liam if you see this! But back to my point! He had some stunning ellioti in his tank journal in the members pics section of this forum. Worth looking at for comparison.
 
I like Brickos suggestion of Festivums as well I think they are a great fish - only concern is that they are upperwater cichlids like Angels and it could cause some issues...
 
Before I suggest any more stocking lists how flexible are you on the fish that you keep?
 
Wills

 

[SouthernCross]

When you say flexible, what do you mean by that?
 
Sharks -

 
Cories
Yeah these little guys have survived four house moves, they are indestructible! I do like cories a lot though, so thats why I have thought about changing to a different species. Another reason is for my cichlids I generally keep the tank on at least 28 degrees (and it gets much hotter on its own here in summer) which I know is hotter than what most cories generally like, so I'm surprised these bronzes have lasted so well. Thats another reason I was thinking about sterbai's, they are one of the few who like it warmer, apparently. Though I was on the catfish website and its trying to tell me bronze's should grow larger than sterbais! I have a distinct memory of seeing some sterbais in my LFS that were ginormous compared to my adult bronze's so I don't know about that.... maybe just seems that way cos sterbais seem so much thicker in the body. I have never seen brochis near me, in fact we on't get an awful lot of variety when it comes to cories around here. Bronze, peppered, julii, sterbai, occasional emerald and arcuatus, panda,  thats about all I can recall. I am tempted to ask in the cory forum but I know a lot of cory people don't like the idea of cories in with cichlids anyway, I don't want to get lynched!
 
Convict
Ohhh man I didn't know that about the convicts. I mean I knew they could hybridise and thats how you got those godawful parrot things, but I didn't realise they would do it so easily with just about anything. I guess worse come to worse if she causes me grief she can join the naughty plant eating severums in my brothers tank. The only cichlids in there are the sevs. However, If I got a male for her, would they keep to themselves then? But then I would have their breeding rage to contend with, although you say she could lay egges and go through those motions just fine on her own as is. But given a choice, would a convict stick with its own kind if there was a partner available over a different fish?
 
Odessa Barbs
I do like my odessa barbs and I'm hoping when I up the group they might start schooling again for me (they used to play together in the filter flow all the time) but at the moment they are just scattered all over the tank. I think thats what I miss - the schooling. I used to have a beautiful big shoal of cardinals before I moved into bigger fish, and I think that schooling effect is really what I'm missing. My black skirt tetras have grown very large and subsequently I think feel very secure in themselves and don't school much anymore either, unfortunately.
 
Sajicas
I was leaning more towards getting a pair (especially with bigger fish - I like the symmetry of it!) so I think I will definitely give those a miss, especially based on what you've said. And I think they don't look as exciting when they're not in breeding colours.
 
Festivums
I did entertain the idea for awhile but I think I'm looking for something more colourful, and there is also the issue with the angels. And my angels are HUGE.
 
Nicaraguans
I'm curious as to why you think one wouldn't be right if Elsie was such a hit for you? She was beautiful, by the way! Are they particularly aggressive or territorial? I just want to clarify why they can be a problem fish. This is one fish where I would definitely consider just the solitary female. I also looked up Liam's threads - his was a stunner too!
 
Firemouth vs Ellioti
I know it has to be one or the other cos they can hybridise and after looking at Liams I am seriously very torn (also very jealous that his sev's didnt trash his tank like mine did!). Elliotis very, very beautiful, but I also like the darker greenish colour the firemouths can sometimes go (reminds me of my sevs). But at the same time, thinking when not in breeding colours firemouths might look very similar to my acaras. Also I know firemouths like to flare their gillls, do elliotis do that too? Its a behaviour I would be interested to see. Also are there any surefire way of sexing either of these?
 
Rainbows
Very high on the list right now. Are they small enough that you think they could be in addition to a choice of something else too? Or am I at capacity do you think? Also, any tips for choosing a pair? Do they pair off at a young age, will I be able to tell if I watch a tank long enough? Or at least is there a way to differentiate between M/F?
 
Salvini
Lastly....looking at Liam's pictures I saw his female Salvini.....what a stunner! Do you think salvinis can be too aggressive/big for this tank though? I really need to stop discovering more fish and making this decision harder!

 
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts. I have plenty of time before I'm ready to go looking. In other good news though, a lot of my old plants that were eaten down to the roots have already started sprouting new leaves!

 

[SouthernCross]

I thought I'd attach a photo of what the tank looks like now and the bigger fish in it. PLEASE excuse how awful the scape (scape? what scape?) looks at the moment. I haven't done anything to it since the severums went, and I gave up on it months ago when I realised they were destroying everything I put in there. There used to be plants all growing around the tops of the vertical pieces of wood, and also from the top of the holey looking rock. The plant in the middle is the one plant the severums obviously didn't like!
 
My plan is to rescape the whole thing. I'm going to get a new huge piece of wood that will branch through the middle of the tank and upper and lower layers and attach lots of plants to it. I'm not sure whether I want to keep those rocks or not, a lot of the fish seem to like them though. I thought about getting some large smooth more natural looking rocks and layering them. But I really want to plant it up again, I just can't wait til I have the time to do it. I want to learn about Co2 too, but thats for another thread.
 
In this shot you can see my two big angels in the top right, and my two acaras in the lower part of the tank. . I think the female is the bigger bodied one. She is noticably bigger than the male and he is a lot older.You can spot some loaches, tetras, barbs, both the sharks and the kribs too.
 
i just thought a tank shot might give the above some perspective and might help generate some more ideas about where I'm going to take this tank and its stocking.
 
Thanks again

 
 
 
 

 

[DrRob]

Yes ellioti do flare like firemouths.
 
I have a few pictures in my elder beach journal, and will have some fry photo's when they get big enough for me to need to get shots.
 
Personally, I prefer them to the firemouths, again though, if you can get them.

 

[Wills]

Wow that  Blue Acara is stunning!!!
 
Right good idea to run down the species in a list haha!
 
Cories
 
Its interesting you say you can get Emerald as they are the Brochis And do not underestimate the size they will grow to - think the width of your hand in length and probably 3 inches tall? Big big fish I was really really shocked the first time I saw them as adults. With South Americans you have 0 problems IMO with cories as a lot of the cichlids we have spoken about are found in small streams with them they are not the large pool dwelling open water cichlids that would be a risk...
 
Convict - Nicaraguan - Salvini
 
Going to group these together as they fit well together. But that is the problem with your other fish they are squishy in comparison, I personally I wouldnt keep Angels, Blue Acara (sort of on the fence, could be okay, could not...), Rainbow Sharks, Clown Loaches, Cories, Black Skirt Tetras or Kuhli Loaches with these. The big difference is jaw structure - Salvini is the best example, Salvini are pretty close to Jags and Dovvi type cichlids with their incredibly powerful jaws - cons and nics are not far behind. All three have proper teeth on the mouth where as the Angels and BAs have teeth further in the mouth and jaws designed more for sifting and detritus. The Con, Nic and Sal (getting lazy with names now haha!) all have strong mouths to eat water bugs and flying bugs as well as detritus and small fish - particularly fry and youngsters. Its a choice any keeper needs to make as to which side they want to keep in a 450 the Con, Nic and Sal would work great you could add something like a JD or maybe an EBJD (though they can be a bit weak...) to make a real punchy statement with colour - Mix in some big Rainbow Fish, a couple Swordtails and some fancy plecs and its a pretty impressive tank really but it would mean over hauling your tank and rehoming things like the Angels etc. 
 
With Elsie my nic, she was great from the start no issues with other fish really, a little rough with new comers but it usually settled down. The other 3 I tried were a night mare from the start everyone got nipped loads and everyone was really stressed. Like I say above in the right tank they are quite manageable but with big Angels and softies like Blue Acaras... I wouldnt risk it.
 
Firemouth/ Ellioti.
 
Would work because you have the sifting jaw like the Angels and BA - if not more so because they sift properly like Geophagus etc. It is down to personal preference - have to say Im not really familiar with the green colour of the FM you spoke about I think thats probably either stress or bad photography - would be inetersted to see it or be proved wrong though
 
As for sexing Im sure there is something about spots on the gill plates? Something like the females have them and the males dont but Im not 100% on that.
 
 
Rainbows
 
Again would work with current fish but they should be counted as main fish as they are a big fish when adult, 6 inches and in some cases a big male could make 8... Glad your considering these as I really like them - I often see them in shops and they are a bit washed out and look a bit odd so I think hmmm are they something rare then while looking at them you get the great interaction with them and then you realise they are rainbows but I have fallen for them a bit lol.... sounding a bit crazy now arent I....
 
 
Anyway back to your stocking...
 
When I said juggling around I mean rehoming as I think there is a big difference in the fish you want and the fish you have...
 
2x angels
2x blue acara
1x male krib
 
8 x black skirt tetras
6x Odessa barbs
 
2 x rainbow sharks
6x cories
Kuhli loaches
 
I think thats a good set up as it is now to be fair and somewhat on reflection but I think you could do the two Rainbows in here - a big 450 liter can take 2 pairs on the bottom, a Krib and a pair of Angels
 
OR you could look at overhauling the tank to get to a point like
 
1x Salvini
1x Nicaraguan
1x Convict
1x JD
8 x black skirt tetras
6x Odessa barbs
5x Pictus Catfish?
 
OR you could get a second tank and do both at the same time

- just as a disclaimer though, I cant be held responsible for any backlash from family if this is the decision lol!!
 
Hope thats helped
Wills