Poisoned By Ich Medication - My Beloved Elephant-Nose Fish

[ceveji]

Dear all (please excuse the typo in the title - new, as I am, to this forum, I can't find where to edit the title!),
 
I am new to this forum and came across it while looking for more details on how to deal with elephantnose fish issues (I read a couple of Neale Monks' comments; I dearly hope he is reading now...). So the situation is the following. I have 2 lovely elephantnose fish in my 60 gallon tank. They have some (small) discus tankmates and a couple Acarichthys heckelii (aka, geophagus); also a couple congo tetras and 1 itty bitty clown loach.
 
About 10 days ago, the itty bitty clown loach ever-so-predictably came down with Ich. No one else had visible signs, but I did a little research and it seemed necessary to treat the whole tank. So, seeing as I had 2 elephantnose and a loach (both of which I understand are scaleless), I began treating for Ich with "Rid Ich Plus" at a half dose. I carefully changed out 25-30% of the water before re-dosing (every 24 hours). The elephantnose seemed fine and were happily eating blood worms and playing about. 
 
Fast forward 10 days to today. I called the fish store because I had seen no signs of improvement in the loach's ich. "Was I supposed to be re-dosing for the whole tank OR just for the new volume of water", I asked them. The man replied I should re-dose for the whole tank. So I feared, naturally, that the reason the Ich had not been killed was simply that I had not been dosing enough. So I added a Rid Ich dose for the whole tank volume. 
 
Four hours later, I came home to some very unhappy elephantnose. Never had I seen them scurry about like this; jumping towards the tank "ceiling" and hanging out at the very tippy-top of the tank. I got really worried and did a 50% water change, also replacing the carbon filter (that I had taken out for the treatment duration). The elephant-nose hid, only to come out quite a while later looking downright... lacerated. One of them has actual welt-like marks on each of his sides (did the Malachite Green/Formalin mix burn him?) and the other has an oddly lighter colored tail and frayed fins... I feel awful.
 
Please help my elephantnose!! Any advice, quick?
 
Thanks a million!
C

 

[sawickib]

 to TFF, hope we can help.
 
Ok well, can you give more info please, is the tank cycled? What are the water stats? i.e. ammonia, nirtrates, nitrites.
 
As you already know elephant noses are HIGHLY sensitive fish, and dont do well with any medications on the market at all.
 
The reason the ich didnt clear up is because you were half dosing, best thing to do would be to treat your clown loach in a QT, or quarantine tank.
 
Having two elephant noses together is not a good idea, the dominant one will bully the smaller one until it dies, they should be kept in groups of 6 or more, or by themselves.
 
Your geophagus grow to large for that tank, idk if you are aware of this or not.
 
And your clown loach needs groups of 6+ and be in a 150 gallon minimum size tank.

 

[ceveji]

Hi there Fish Addict,
 
Thanks so much for your reply! Nice to hear back from people quickly. Let's see... My water parameters are perfect: no ammonia, no nitrates, no nitrites, and a pH of between 6.4-6.6 (the discus like it acidic). I've had the tank for a couple months. Yes, I'm aware of the fact that I'll need a larger tank when the Geos, elephantnose, and discus "grow up." 60 is fine for now though. 
 
Any tips on getting the EPN back to normal? They just ate some blood worms... Good sign? But they're not doing their nightly rounds as they usually do... 
 
Tx! C

 

[sawickib]

I mean when i kept elephant noses, i had big problems with them, i did a group of 6, i had 4 jump out the back, very sad but i fixed the wholes and got 4 more, like all of them were different sizes and my double nose ruled the tank, well my 2 smallest ones got bullied to death and i was left with 4, then my double nose was making everyones life miserable and i moved him to my 75 gallon and he died from the stress, and maybe problems with acclimation, so i ended up rehoming the last three.
 
What im trying to get at is they can be very sensitive, and they would seem fine for a  second and be dead the next, i would suggest doing a 50-75% water change again, unless they seem to be re-cooping, you dont want to stress them out more than they already are.

 

[DoubleDutch]

I know clowns are prone to Ich, but are you 100% sure it is ch you're dealing with (not every white spot is Ich !!)
Having more "sensitive"fish in there I think it''s kind of strange no other fish have been infected !!!

 

[star4]

I could be that the single clown loach is under stress, these fish live in groups. Stress lowers their immune system (of any fish) and makes them prone to illness. If you have an unhappy fish it can go from one disease to another rapidly without it affecting the whole tank. It is a myth that if one fish has ich all the others will get it, unless all the fish are under stress with poor water conditions.
 
Do lots of water changes to help remove the medication, move the clown loach to a seperate tank and treat just that with ich medication then re-home it.

 

[WILDER]

Clown loaches shouldn't really be kept on there own. You need a least 3.
Also Clown Loaches do have scales on the body, but not on the head region. the scales are that small you
don't notice them.
Can you isolate the more sensitive fish to an isolation tank. Or even the clown loach?

 

[ceveji]

Thanks everybody... Double Dutch, perhaps it isn't Ich but some of the Discus have little white spots on their tailfins as well. And when the loach had it bad (he's a bit better now) he was "covered in sugar," as they say! 

 
I woke up this morning to the smaller of the two elephantnoses swimming upside down. Quite sad... I think the medication killed him. He was perfectly fine until I increased the dosage of the Rid Ich. Oddly, the other one seems okay. Not quite as active as usual but not showing signs of distress like the smaller one. 
 
Sawickib, I've tried to introduce new elephantnose to the tank (I have 2 and I tried to bring in 2 more-before any Discus were in there) and it was war between the newbies and the oldies (oldies picking on the newbies). It went on for half a day and then I finally took the newbies back. I had thought since there were four that they'd be happily schooling, but not at all. If this one dies, should I get more? How many, exactly?
 
Anything I can do to make this fish's final hours more pleasant?
 
All best, Ceve

 

[sawickib]

The don't school they're territorial so having 6+ lessens aggression and sets up a heirchy, having less causes one to be bullied into it dies and it continues to happen.

When adding new elephant noses I would rearrange th tank, so it's new territory for everyone, and new rankings kinda.

If you only have one now I wouldn't get anymore, adding the 5 more would only overstock the tank.
If your last ele is curved into an arch shape, then that means he's on his last hours, you could put him down by putting him in a bag of water and putting him in the fridge, I'm pretty sure they don't feel any pain this way.

 

[WILDER]

Sawiickib can you get electric shocks from elplantnoses. Just curious as don't know much about them.

 

[sawickib]

No they can't shock you, they do have a weak electrical organ that they use to find live prey and communicate, and even find out each other's gender, which they can't do in aquaria due to the glass tanks messing with their frequencies.

You can however put tinfoil in the tank connected to a speaker, similar to what you do for an electric eel and you can hear all the clicks through that.

They have the same organ as BGKs which Is why they suggest against housing these fish together.

 

[ceveji]

They're really wonderful, playful fish. Lots of fun to watch. They definitely need hiding places though, and about as many as there are elephantnose, as they are a bit territorial. 
 
My little guy died. The lesson is medicate for Ich via a different method than formalin/malachite green when you have elephantnose in the tank. The half dose is not strong enough to kill the Ich and the full dose will kill your elephantnose.

 

[sawickib]

Sorry for your loss hope everyone else gets better.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

just and FYI
 

 

Freshwater Ich
Symptoms: Fish look like they have little white salt grains on them and may scratch against objects in the tank.
 
White spot disease (Ichthyopthirius multifiliis) is caused by a protozoan with a life cycle that includes a free-living stage. Ich grows on a fish --> it falls off and attaches to gravel or tank glass --> it reproduces to MANY parasites --> these swarmers then attach to other fish. If the swarmers do not find a fish host, they die in about 3 days (depending on the water temperature).
 
Therefore, to treat it, medicine must be added to the display tank to kill free-living parasites. If fish are removed to quarantine, parasites living in the tank will escape the treatment -- unless ALL fish are removed for about a week in freshwater or three weeks in saltwater systems. In a reef tank, where invertebrates are sensitive to ich medications, removing the fish is the only option. Some people think that ich is probably dormant in most tanks. It is most often triggered by temperature fluctuations.
 
Remedy: For most fish, use a medication with formalin and malachite green. These are the active ingredients in many ich medications at fish shops. Some products are Kordon's Rid Ich and Aquarium Products' Quick Cure. Just read the label and you may find others. Check for temperature fluctuations in the tank and fix them to avoid recurrences. Note that tetras can be a little sensitive to malachite green, so use it at half the dose.
 
Use these products as directed (usually a daily dose) until all of the fish are spot-free. Then dose every three days for a total of four more doses. This will kill any free-swimming parasites as they hatch out of cysts.
 
Another remedy is to raise the tank temperature to about 90 deg F and add 1 tsp/gallon salt to the water. Not all fish tolerate this.
 
Finally, one can treat ich with a ``transfer method.'' Fish are moved daily into a different tank with clean, conditioned, warmed water. Parasites that came off of the fish are left behind in the tank. After moving the fish daily for a week, the fish (presumably cured) can be put back into the main tank. The disadvantage of this method is that it stresses both fish and fishkeeper.

from http/fins.actwin.com/aquariafaq.html

 

[WILDER]

No they can't shock you, they do have a weak electrical organ that they use to find live prey and communicate, and even find out each other's gender, which they can't do in aquaria due to the glass tanks messing with their frequencies.

You can however put tinfoil in the tank connected to a speaker, similar to what you do for an electric eel and you can hear all the clicks through that.

They have the same organ as BGKs which Is why they suggest against housing these fish together. 
 
 
 
Thank you for the detailed reply.