Ph & Hardness In Scottish Water

[fionah]

I have a 2 week old tank. I have done water tests using 5 in 1 test strips and found the following:

pH level - below 6.4 which is the lowest on the chart.
GH - lowest on chart is 0GH and the results seem below this!
KH - between 3-6.
Nitrate - 25
Nitrite - 5

I tested my tap water (from Scotland) and the pH and hardness levels are the same.

I'm concerned about the low ph and hardness levels because i was told this will stall the cycling process unless pH is about 7.0.

My options are:

1. baking soda - I think this would only be temporary and wouldn't do anything for the hardness
2. limestone in the tank - not sure if this is readily available in Scottish LFS?
3. API proper pH - I bought this then realised it shouldn't be added to planted aquariums so will need to return it
4. crushed coral put insight the filter secured by stockings
5. shells used as ornaments - does this work?

Any advice gratefully appreciated.

 

[backtotropical]

Hi Fiona,

Where in Scotland are you? I am around 10 miles east of Edinburgh in East Lothian.

With regard to your water, have you only tested with dip strips? I ask because these are known to be terribly inaccurate. Liquid tests are much better. It's maybe an idea to test with a different kit in the first instance to confirm that your results are correct. If you don't have one, your LFS will probably test it for you.

If your water is really soft and acidic (Scotland is famous for it after all), i would advise against using baking soda or API proper pH, as these will raise your pH, but as you say will do nothing for the hardness, usually resulting in big pH swings. This really isn't desirable.

I don't think limestone is readily available in LFSs.

Your best option in my opinion is to use shells as ornaments (this does work) and to use crushed coral in the filter or substrate. Even better, if you haven't yet added your substrate, use coral sand or coral gravel. This would obviously depend on which fish you are going to keep.

If you use any of the above suggestions, be aware that all of them will lose their effectiveness through time and should be replaced every 2 years or so to avoid any sudden pH crashes 3 years down the line.

I can't stress enough to stay away from these powder pH adjusters. They're a liability at best.

Hope this helps you.

Cheers

BTT

 

[Chrispixx]

I can't stress enough to stay away from these powder pH adjusters. They're a liability at best.

Though i frown on using Ph adjusters like everyone else on this site,the one thing i will say is API Proper Ph works good. i tried it in the past when i thought i had to keep my Ph between 7.0 and 7.2 it puts the Ph at the number thats on the container and keeps it there. But you need to add it to your replacement water during changes.

I do remember something on the label about plants so it may not be suitable for planted tanks. Its best to get your Ph where it needs to be the natural way and not using chemicals. Ideally its best not to mess with Ph at all as long as its where it needs to be, A stable Ph is better than a changing Ph.

 

[BigC]

Ditch those strips, honestly they are next to useless. Get yourself a proper chemical test kits/lab. It maybe that the strips are giving you a worng reading. (renouned for it)
Regards
BigC

 

[mustrum]

I'm based in NE Scotland with both v low KH and GH. Having just completed a fishless cycle, I did notice that a falling pH stalled the cycle. So it seems that you will need to do something in the long term (if you want to maintain effective biological filtration), as per the other posts in this thread.

Also have a look at sceptical aquarist wrt pH changes.

My killifish have proved tolerant of sudden pH drops (accidental... I still don't have sufficent buffering in my tank), so it might be useful also to think about what fish you want!


cheers

m

 

[fionah]

Just back from the LFS who tested my water without charge. I was told that the Nitrate and Nitrite was a bit high (which was expected since I'm still cycling). The pH was found to be 7.2 to 7.4! So does that mean now I am in the opposite situation where I should try and lower my pH?!

I will be buying an API master test kit and getting rid of the test strips. One thing I wondered about however, was the alkalinity and hardness levels. This isn't included in the master test kit. Do I need other test kits for this or should I just concentrate on getting pH, nitrate and nitrite correct?

 

[backtotropical]

Hi Fionah,

A pH of 7.2 - 7.4 is absolutely fine, no need to try to lower it.

An API test kit will be a good investment. As i said above, the strips are known to be terribly inaccurate which you have just proven.

With regard to alkalinity, pH is basically the same thing. pH is a measure of how alkaline or acidic something is.

pH 7.0 is known as 'neutral'. Anything below 7.0 is 'acidic' (the lower the number, the more acidic), and anything above 7.0 is alkaline (the higher the number, the more alkaline). The pH scale runs from 0 - 14, so you can see why 7 is neutral.

With regard to hardness, you don't really need to worry about it whilst cycling unless your pH keeps dropping for no apparent reason (i assume you are doing a fishless cycle?). Once you get fish, you may wish to buy a kH (carbonate hardness) test kit, out of interest if nothing else, although i would say that it's not absolutely necessary unless you have pH problems.


Cheers

BTT

 

[BigC]

My killifish have proved tolerant of sudden pH drops

What species have you!

With regard to alkalinity, pH is basically the same thing.

Not technically true.
Alkalinity is essentially a measurement of water's ability to neutralize acids. It is a measure of the buffering capacity of a system while pH is basically the measurement of the concentration of hydrogen ions in water.
I think what you really ment was Alkaline not Alkalinity.

 

[mustrum]

What species have you!

Aphyosemion australe: nothing "specialist". Actually I sought these after reading your pinned notes in the Killifish forum;
I figured they might be hardy enough for my clumsy hands! The water chemistry is pretty stable now. I am keeping a close eye on it...

cheers

m

 

[backtotropical]

With regard to alkalinity, pH is basically the same thing.

Not technically true.
Alkalinity is essentially a measurement of water's ability to neutralize acids. It is a measure of the buffering capacity of a system while pH is basically the measurement of the concentration of hydrogen ions in water.
I think what you really ment was Alkaline not Alkalinity.

Interesting BigC. My understanding is that, yes, pH is a measure of the concentration of hydrogen ions, but i thought that is a measure of how 'acid' or 'alkaline' something is.

You say above that alkalinity is a measure of buffering capacity, which i understood to be more closely linked with kH.

Are you saying that 'alkaline' ( a solution with a pH of higher than 7.0) is not the same as 'alkalinity'? Is alkalinity more closely linked to the kH (buffering capacity) than it is to the pH (concentration of hydrogen ions)?

My understanding is that pH measures how alkaline something is, and so is basically the same as the measure of 'alkalinity'. Is this not correct?

I don't know if you've identified a gap in my knowledge here, or just misunderstood what i said? I'd be interested to hear more.

Cheers

BTT

 

[BigC]

Aphyosemion australe: nothing "specialist

Hey they're hard enough to breed and rear sucessfully. They will be fine water just over pH7 - 7.5 but for sucessful breeding the need to have soft water with a pH of around 6.

[URL="http/fins.actwin.com/mirror/begin-chem.html"]http/fins.actwin.com/mirror/begin-chem.html[/URL]

Regards
BigC

 

[iihay]

With regard to alkalinity, pH is basically the same thing.

Not technically true.
Alkalinity is essentially a measurement of water's ability to neutralize acids. It is a measure of the buffering capacity of a system while pH is basically the measurement of the concentration of hydrogen ions in water.
I think what you really ment was Alkaline not Alkalinity.

Interesting BigC. My understanding is that, yes, pH is a measure of the concentration of hydrogen ions, but i thought that is a measure of how 'acid' or 'alkaline' something is.

You say above that alkalinity is a measure of buffering capacity, which i understood to be more closely linked with kH.

Are you saying that 'alkaline' ( a solution with a pH of higher than 7.0) is not the same as 'alkalinity'? Is alkalinity more closely linked to the kH (buffering capacity) than it is to the pH (concentration of hydrogen ions)?

My understanding is that pH measures how alkaline something is, and so is basically the same as the measure of 'alkalinity'. Is this not correct?

I don't know if you've identified a gap in my knowledge here, or just misunderstood what i said? I'd be interested to hear more.

Cheers

BTT

pH is a effectively a measure of the concentration of H3O+ ions in a solution. An acid solution is one where the pH is less than 7, a basic solution is one where the pH is great than 7. pH is not a measurement of alkalinity but above pH 7 it is a measure of basicity.

Alkalinity is basically the ability of a solution to neutralise acid to a "neutral" equilibrium state where only water and salts are present. Alkalinity is defined in this way as the acid (or single positively charged hydrogen ions) are "neutralised" by an array of multiply charged negative ions, for example CO3-2 ions, HCO3- etc. Obviously the higher the negative charge the less negative ions required to "neutralise" the single charged hydrogen ions.

The pH scale is solely based on the concentration of the single H3O+ ion and is therefore not directly related.


Hope this helps, I have tried to keep equations out of it but if you are interested the wikipedia entries are spot on.

Iain

 

[backtotropical]

Thanks Ian.

I always thought that the opposite of acid is alkaline (below and above 7.0 on the pH scale respectively).

It seems that the opposite of acid is basic, and alkaline is something slightly different. Is that correct?

I will check Wiki, thanks.

Cheers

BTT

edit: Sorry Fiona, i have totally hijacked your thread here.

 

[fionah]

edit: Sorry Fiona, i have totally hijacked your thread here.

That's ok, I'd be interested to know more about this too as I'm now even more confused!

 

[iihay]

Do read the wikipedia entries they are very good. Base is indeed the "opposite" of acid, alkali's are just a special type of base essentially soluble and providing OH- ions.

The whole relationship is essentially an equilibrium between positive and negative ions (note this is a simplistic statement!) The really important thing here is to understand that KH values indicate the capacity of your water to prevent a sudden drop in pH. If you have a low KH you need to keep a close eye on the pH or buffer the water. Adding bicarb or other chemical agents is not a great approach to this, far better to monitor your water closely for a period of time and get a feel for how the frequency and volume of water changes affects the stability of your water. When you have a handle on this you shoudl be able to settle into a routine. I would recommend getting a pH meter from Ebay and not using the test strips. This makes it really easy to do 2-3 pH readings a day if you want. I did this and plugged it all into a spreadsheet with details on the water changes and it made if really easy to work out a good frequency.

Iain